picked up a handful of new followers from that… sorry I’ve only had non-Homestuck stuff to talk about for the past month or so, but my asks are always open!
obviously use of the sucker juju is supposed to represent a kind of psychedelic trip, but i didn’t fully realise until earlier today that trickster mode itself is all actually just an illusion!
the squiddles are images of the horrorterrors conjured up by the subconscious mind:
which would seem to be a contradictory explanation; not really a big deal, since the squiddles and horrorterrors only exist at the periphery of Homestuck’s story, and the mystery surrounding them forms a large part of their mass. but then, years later still, Andrew seems to use the exact same wording as his Formspring answer when describing the trickster squiddles:
Jade first imagines she sees a candy-coated version of this disturbing eldritch abyss. Literally: it’s a Trickster facade. Squiddles canonically are known to be Trickster Horrorterrors. A perception of the beasts that is friendlier and more comprehensible to mortal minds. The illusion doesn’t last long, though. (Homestuck: Book 5: Act 5 Act 2 Part 1, p.291)
the wording here is pretty unambiguous; trickster mode is a “facade” and an “illusion [that] doesn’t last long”. long has it been obvious that trickster mode - thanks to the sucker juju, an invention of the race of cherubs, who are deeply concerned with storytelling - served as a method of hurrying along the story from the reader’s perspective, skipping over the grittier “meat” of the story in favor of more “candy”-oriented lighthearted content; but this seems to suggest that underneath the so-called candy-coating that meat was actually still happening, just obscured from view?
this made me wonder if the spiral image of the sucker had ever been compared to the spirals popularly associated with hypnosis; and of course it has!
i should have known Lord English’s T3RR1BL3 HYPNOT1C GL4R3 wasn’t just the ability to influence others on an individual level, but in fact the ability to create illusions over all of reality… manipulation and storytelling go hand-in-hand in Homestuck after all.
I guess if trickster mode is an illusion, it’s worth thinking about what this means for “grimdark mode”, which presumably has the opposite effect; rather than augmenting reality to coat all the tough meat with palatable candy, it provides the vision to pierce through the lighthearted and see the gritty truth beneath? despite its dark associations, it is of course the result of Rose attempting to cut through to the truth with her light powers… and Rose’s very symbol is a squiddle with its saccharine expression cut away to resemble what the horrorterrors truly are underneath.
I spent a little time before I thought about this wondering what the “meat” version of trickster mode would even be, and joked to myself that the eldritch meat-world from Song of Saya was a good fit, but it’s really an apt comparison; the eldritch horror genre is all about the mind-bending truth behind our reality… I suppose while the cherubs are paradox space’s masters of fiction, the horrorterrors represent truth, which might be a reason Lord English is so at odds with them?
I guess if trickster mode is an illusion, it’s worth thinking about what this means for “grimdark mode”, which presumably has the opposite effect; rather than augmenting reality to coat all the tough meat with palatable candy, it provides the vision to pierce through the lighthearted and see the gritty truth beneath? despite its dark associations, it is of course the result of Rose attempting to cut through to the truth with her light powers… and Rose’s very symbol is a squiddle with its saccharine expression cut away to resemble what the horrorterrors truly are underneath.
I spent a little time before I thought about this wondering what the “meat” version of trickster mode would even be, and joked to myself that the eldritch meat-world from Song of Saya was a good fit, but it’s really an apt comparison; the eldritch horror genre is all about the mind-bending truth behind our reality… I suppose while the cherubs are paradox space’s masters of fiction, the horrorterrors represent truth, which might be a reason Lord English is so at odds with them?
I’ve always maintained that grimdark Rose was actually undead in the Problem Sleuth sense, hence the greyed skin and apparent similarities to rainbow drinkerism, which is something that makes even more sense in this context; if someone who partakes in candy experiences trickster mode, then of course a flesh eater would experience the opposite, meatier version of reality…
I’ve basically spent the last month talking about this on my personal accounts, but I guess here is as good a place as any to really outline the reasons I find it hard to see Spamton G. Spamton as any kind of victim or tragic figure…
To begin with, the most basic fact is that Spamton isn’t real. None of the Dark World is real. And even if we choose to ignore the obvious and focus just on what we’re told in the game, Spamton has only existed for less than a day. Prior to the creation of the dark fountain in the computer lab, Spamton was just a computer program like any other. It is not possible for a computer program to have a tragic backstory. If Spamton is just a puppet with no control over his life, this is not a trait that is unique to him. As outlined from the very beginning of Chapter 1, all Darkners live out their lives as NPCs, their sole purpose being to assists Lightners in their quests. Spamton is just a rare case of a Darkner with ambitions to rise above this design.
More importantly, I don’t think Spamton’s past “traumas” are even his own. As a Darkner, he essentially exists as a tulpa or thoughtform, and thus serves as a mirror of the “real people” around him - primarily Kris and Noelle. This is first made clear when the pair backtrack through the junkyard to the locked room with Spamton’s store inside; though unable to enter, the area seems to fill Noelle with nostalgia for the adventures she once had with Kris and their siblings, Dess and Asriel. Obviously, Spamton represents something that happened in the pair’s pasts.
His presence in Chapter 2’s evil route emphasises this even further. After spending Noelle’s part of the game informing the player how many Darkners are left to freeze, playing an active part in manipulating Noelle to become “stronger”, he finally offers his “Commemorative Ring”…
…given his (and the Virovirokun’s) repeated references to the year 1997, this ring is obviously meant to “commemorate” something that happened in that year. And given the evil route’s content, plus Chapter 2’s focus on Dess’ disappearance and how it affected Noelle… it seems pretty clear what exactly this event is.
I’ve seen it frequently suggested that Kris’ obvious trauma response after the NEO fight is just due to how “weird” the event was, or perhaps because Spamton’s puppet-on-a-string plight reminds Kris of their own situation, being controlled by the player. But the fact is that Kris shows some kind of problem with the NEO suit before the fight even begins; trying to interact with it and make it do something after initially inserting the loaded disk elicits this text:
It’s not Spamton, or even Spamton’s attempt to kill Kris for their soul, that triggers Kris, at least initially. It is NEO itself.
(It seems widely agreed upon that the Lightner who initially created the files for NEO is Mettaton, who was responsible for NEO’s design in Undertale: but given the prominence of angels and angelic symbolism in Noelle’s family and personal life, could that all be just a red herring, and the Lightner who poured her hopes and dreams into that drawing was in fact Noelle herself? Per the romantic ferris wheel scene, we know that Noelle’s dream is in fact to become an angel and fly away from all her problems… I wonder if NEO isn’t indeed something Noelle created to commemorate the very same event commemorated by the Thorn Ring? (Spamton again spews out the year 1997 in association with NEO’s creation)
Given the close relationship between the Dreemurr and Holiday families, Asriel’s own wish to become an angel, and the way Undertale’s Mettaton (itself the name of an angel) wished to essentially usurp Asriel’s role as the angel who saves monsterkind, I certainly think the situation surrounding NEO is more complex than people seem to think.)
Even setting aside any question as to what Spamton “represents”, his intentions to manipulate the player into violence aren’t restricted just to the game’s evil route:
…and when the player does use his commemorative ring, he’s not shy about what its intended use is:
And above any of this - above Spamton’s selling of weapons to children, or his urging of children to use weapons - the very core of Spamton’s character is that of the car salesman, that of dangerously misleading advertisement. His very nature is deception and the art of the deal. His job is to sell people a lie, and none of his appearances in Deltarune make any attempt to hide this. The player’s first contact with Spamton is an attempted scam. The items he sells are priced incorrectly and do not work. He makes the attainment of the NEO suit out to be a good deal for Kris, and then immediately tries to stab them in the back. Any reading of Spamton as a purely sympathetic character is a face-value interpretation of the words of a character whose very essence is manipulation. If his dialogue contains a hidden tragedy about losing everything and needing help, that is on purpose. Everything he says is part of the grift.
your post on spamton is honestly awful. you seem to make a lot of assumptions based on your own opinions (where in the game does it say that darkners aren't "real?") and you clearly have A LOT of bias against spamton. what does it matter to you if people find comfort in spamton and think he's sympathetic? a lot of minorities and neurodivergent communities relate to him so to say he's essentially ~just evil~ is shitting all over those people. maybe that's not your intention but you still did it.
don’t take this the wrong way but you need to get some fresh air
im sorry but not only is your post about spamton wrong but its completely invalidated by the fact that youre a homestuck fan <3 get well soon
finding out who toby fox is and where half of undertale comes from is going to hurt your fee fees a lot more than me pointing out that your comfort character tries to manipulate children into killing each other
I thought I’d get a lot of people trying to argue with me about spamton I didn’t think anyone would really be that mad. good thing that’s all I have to say about him and we never have to broach the topic again
(actual discussion question not an attempt to start a fight) i rea dthe spamton post twice and idk if im dumb or smth but im not sure i understand the ending bit? like spamton doesnt hide a tragedy, and in fact never says much about his backstory to you (directly or implying) other than that he used to be big. his backstory is actually told to you by the addisons (who were actually there to witness his falk from grace) after you beat his boss fight in a normal route. he has no control over how his story is told to you. regardless of the progression of time in the dark world, that backstory was real to the addisons and real to him.
him being read as a mastermind manipulator is also a bit odd because like. he lives in the dumpster as a failed businessman specifically because hes just godawful at lying and manipulating. his entire plan relies on the kris’ puppeteer, the player, being curious enough to see where this leads, even if we dont at all believe what hes laying down (and the player is very clearly part of the narrative in deltarune).
like spamton isnt a good person (he’ll ice kris for his own “freedom” whatever that entails, and hes p foul mouthed and rude to kids) but his backstory is real enough to him, and it lends him a pitiable quality (especially the scene right after his normal route boss fight where he seems to regain hold of his senses for a few moments). and his established backstory doesnt really leave room for him to be particularly cunning (like his best plan to get into the mansion was to try and imitate swatch. which is hilarious btw).
again idk if i like misunderstood some parts of the post or smth.
You’re the second person to use words along the lines of “master manipulator”, which is a misinterpretation of my post, so I think I should start with that. My saying that Spamton is a character who is essentially manipulative isn’t the same as saying that he’s particular good at it (though it needs to be said that being a “good manipulator” can mean a myriad of different things depending on context, or the manipulator’s intentions). What Spamton’s constantly deceptions say about him is that he is a desperate manipulator. Like the advertisements and the car salesmen he is inspired by, he doesn’t need to deceive everyone; he only needs to find one vulnerable or gullible enough person to make his big break. That’s why he attaches himself to Kris and insists that Kris only ever interact with him while they’re alone; both battles with NEO show that Kris cannot beat Spamton on their own.
(Whether it is actually Kris or the player that Spamton believes he is manipulating is largely irrelevant. He’s looking for someone who’ll listen to him and believe him; and in the case of Snowgrave, he’s willing to push children to extremes to attain what he wants, whether someone else is also manipulating those kids or not.)
You’re also the second person to mention the fact that he lives in a dumpster as evidence that he’s ineffectual… I think this is majorly missing the point. The fact that your first encounter with Spamton involves him crawling out of a dumpster like a miserable lowlife is part of the act! This kind of “I’ve fallen on hard times and need your help” ploy is a classic part of the toolset of this type of person/advertisement. As a Darkner, Spamton’s life plays out to a certain script, and being a pathetic, seemingly sympathetic person is precisely part of the spam advertisement script.
Now, this is where a lot of people seem to be losing me. I am not necessarily saying Spamton’s backstory did not happen to him (in as much as anything can “happen” to a Darkner). I do not necessarily deny that Spamton (believes he) fell upon hard times and had to start living in a dumpster. My main assertion is that very little of this actually effects Spamton in the way he pretends it does. He’s milking his tragedy as a selling strategy.
One needs to examine the recurring themes in Deltarune thus far. We know Darkners can’t die, at least in the sense we are familiar with; hitting them until their health runs out only results in their running away. This makes sense, because they are objects. You can’t kill a playing card any more than you can kill a window on your operating system. Similarly, though we are led to believe that King is rough with his son in Chapter 1, as of Chapter 2 this actually seems to have been a joke. If you throw Lancer against something, he just bounces. Again, he is a toy, an object. He doesn’t seem to experience “hurt” in the same way a person would.
This same logic should be applied to Spamton. If you throw a playing card on the ground, the playing card doesn’t care; why should a spam email “care” if it’s put in a trash folder? (Again, this is part of the spam email’s “script”.) Furthermore; if we are to believe Spamton was at one point, at least in his mind, thrown out of Queen’s castle, then Queen or her underlings should be the ones held responsible for this, no? But if one thing is clear from Chapter 2, it’s that Queen is not a malicious character. If Spamton was thrown from Queen’s mansion on her orders, then there are only two real options that are consistent with Queen’s character.
Queen believed that throwing Spamton on the streets would not actually effect him adversely, in the same vein as King’s treatment of Lancer. Again, why should a computer feel badly about putting a spam file in the trash? It’s in both of their very routines. OR
Queen did think Spamton would suffer from his punishment, and she believed that he deserved it. (Refer back to the idea of Spamton representing some past trauma of Noelle’s: given Queen’s (albeit misguided) maternal fondness for Noelle, this would also be a perfectly fitting scenario).
It is true that much of what we know about Spamton’s past comes from the Addisons; but if we take the Addisons at their word, Spamton’s story is not a particularly sympathetic one!
It’s the classic story of selling your soul for power, becoming big headed, and having everything blow up in your face. Of course he tries to get his power back by having someone else sell their soul to him.
It’s only when we take Spamton’s own lines into account - see the situation from his tinted, warped view - that it starts to become anything resembling a sad story. When he talks about how badly the acid burns, or wails and cries about his furniture being taken as Queen evicts him…
…he’s performing for an audience, instinctively, even when an audience isn’t there. There is no reason whatsoever to believe him when he says this stuff. I’m not here to tell anyone how they should feel about a video game character. That’s not what this blog is for, it’s not really something I give a shit about. This is just analysis of a character with regards to the themes of the greater work. But if I were to voice my personal opinion, as informed by this reading of Deltarune Chapter 2, it would be that if you do take pity on Spamton, don’t do it just because he tells you to! It’s exactly statements like “the scene where he seems to regain hold of his senses for a few moments” that I take issue with. Why is it that his sympathetic moments are treated as “the real Spamton” and his cruel, manipulative moments are simply an affliction, when that way of thinking is the complete reverse of what a personified spam email represents?
While I do agree that it’s generally true that Darkners “believe” that their spontaneously generated backstories actually “happened” to them, it is vital to keep in mind that this is not universally true. Just as Darkners are aware of their existence as fantasies, NPCs whose purpose is to assists Lightners, we have examples of Darkners acknowledging their fictitious pasts and actively making “arbitrary” decisions about the details of their own stories:
Just as it is true that Darkners cannot be so easily pigeonholed into categories of “personhood” and “nonpersonhood”, “real” or “not real”, to “know” a Darkner’s history is not as simple as finding out what is “real” or “not real” in the Darkner’s mind. The Darkner’s memories are tied up in the same illusory dark fountain magic that governs their physical forms and the world around them.
Are you the incarnation of Rose homestuck? You seem like Rose homestuck. I feel like you two are similiar and I think it is cool. For a instance, you remind me of her own game blog.
Characters from Chapter 2 of Deltarune having old beef with characters from Chapter 1 (Spamton and Tasque Manager with Jevil, Queen with King of course) is a funny recurring motif in a world where these characters necessarily can have never met before… but I suppose being generated with these eccentricities that make them “seem more real” is part of the point for Darkners? It makes me think of the “Gaster” stuff from Undertale, which I stopped caring for basically for the exact reason that it existed as mystery purely for mystery’s sake, by its very design incapable of having any effect on the greater story…
I guess it’s worth noting that if it were possible for “Gaster” to be the guy Spamton and Jevil had been in contact with like people seem to think, it could only be if Gaster himself were necessarily unreal… which certainly does make sense for a guy who disappeared into his “creation” and thereafter stopped existing?
Everything in Deltarune is “necessarily” this or “necessarily” that which is exactly what Toby Fox wants me to think with all this “Darkners are created for a purpose” and “Lightners’ choices don’t matter”
