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• 7 yr. ago
Brisslayer333
ADMIN MOD
Assassins rarely die

#
Let's talk about TPS.

Howdy folks. I wrote an angry comment a few minutes ago, and I'd like to know your thoughts about what I said in it. Here we go:

TPS's story completely ignores anything that happened in Bl2.

Why does Moxxi hate Jack?

Is Jack always bad or does he slowly become bad?

Why are Lilith and Roland actually on Elpis?

Why do Lilith and Roland agree to help Moxxi? Do they hate Jack too? (And why?)

How is Jack a "low-level" programmer if he has control of the entire station (with his own mega office)?

Why does Jack get Timothy to go through the surgery before the events of TPS? Is Timothy's appearance in TPS even canon? If he's not canon, why does he respond to things that happen in-game, and why do other characters (including Jack) respond to him?

How does Jack get access to the fucking Destroyer at all if he's just a low-level programmer!

Is Athena stupid, or is the story really bad enough for her to believe that Jack was good at some point in his life?

Why would Jack EVER risk his own life for yours if he is trully a monster like (apparently) Moxxi, Roland and Lilith believe him to be?

Are the sacrificed scientists really the reason Moxxi, Roland and Lilith attempt to murder Jack? Are they fucking idiots for believing they're better than him if they also kill people as easily as he does (no, the story is just bad!)(Also, I'm not referring to the common enemies this trio kills, I'm referring to them fucking trying to kill motherfucking Jack!)?

The game's story has more plot-holes than fucking Future Diary, so how could you possibly believe it to be better than Bl2's? Are you just gonna give me a "oh, lul, I just like it." or are you gonna own up to the shit you're vouching for here?

The game also doesn't let enough time pass between Bl1 and TPS to reconcile many things that were supposed to happen in Jack and Moxxi's relationship. Was Jack already setting people on fire before meeting Athena? Why the fuck was he doing that if he didn't hate bandits, like Lilith, (hating bantits is his main motive in Bl2. I don't believe he hated Lilith more than he hated anyone else in Bl2) yet?

The story isn't even the main reason people play loot-shooters, but TPS couldn't even get that right! It sucked for loot-shooting, and it didn't make any sense. TPS is bad.

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cephalopodAscendant
• 7y ago
Behold the rare and majestic Clappy Bird!

Let's go through this point by point.

> Why does Moxxi hate Jack?

She's pretty clear about it in Pre-Sequel when she sabotages the Eye of Helios. In her own words: "I've been watching you, Jack. And behind that smile, behind that hero complex, there's something wrong about you. If you come down from Helios alive, a lot of decent people will live to regret it." On the other hand, 2 never mentions why she dumped Jack, so there's nothing to be inconsistent with.

> Is Jack always bad or does he slowly become bad?

See Moxxi's quote above. It's suggested that his dark side has always been there, but it didn't start to awaken until he went through all those betrayals in Pre-Sequel. Plus, we know that even before Pre-Sequel, he'd already started his abuse of Angel, even though he justified it as being for her own protection.

> Why are Lilith and Roland actually on Elpis?

They tell you this the first time you run into them: they're on vacation. It's the same reason they don't want to help you out at first.

> Why do Lilith and Roland agree to help Moxxi? Do they hate Jack too? (And why?)

They trust Moxxi from their past experiences with her during the original game's DLCs, and possibly untold events between 1 and Pre-Sequel. They're clearly horrified when Jack kills off the scientists at the merest suggestion that there might be a mole, so I'd imagine they didn't take much convincing to go along with Moxxi's plan.

> How is Jack a "low-level" programmer if he has control of the entire station (with his own mega office)?

If I recall correctly, we never learn his actual job title before he takes his Klingon promotion, and most of the descriptions of his job come from the highly-biased Tassiter. Plus, "low-level programmer" actually has two possible meanings: there's being low in the company hierarchy like most people would assume, but there's also programmers that work with low-level programming languages (i.e. assembly), a difficult job that pays really well. It's also possible that he started out as a low-level programmer but had been promoted by the time Pre-Sequel began.

> Why does Jack get Timothy to go through the surgery before the events of TPS? Is Timothy's appearance in TPS even canon? If he's not canon, why does he respond to things that happen in-game, and why do other characters (including Jack) respond to him?

Even back then, Jack had a major ego, so it's not implausible that he saw himself as important enough to need a body double. Timothy tells Janey that it's because Jack has big dreams, but that's all the explanation we get. I don't really see why Timothy wouldn't be canon, since that hasn't happened with any other Vault Hunters.

> How does Jack get access to the fucking Destroyer at all if he's just a low-level programmer!

You can refer back to the discussion on his actual job title, but clearly he has a lot of resources at his disposal; he's been able to cover up the existence of his daughter, and he's got enough money to hire a group of Vault Hunters. Smuggling the Destroyer's eye onto Helios doesn't seem that much more difficult, since the Destroyer's existence doesn't seem to be very well-known and Tassiter doesn't pay much attention to what happens on Helios normally.

> Is Athena stupid, or is the story really bad enough for her to believe that Jack was good at some point in his life?

Remember, he's still acting heroically when she first meets him. It isn't until she's already committed to the job that he starts jumping off the deep end.

> Why would Jack EVER risk his own life for yours if he is trully a monster like (apparently) Moxxi, Roland and Lilith believe him to be?

You saved his life earlier, so he's just returning the favor. Lilith and Roland don't start viewing him as a monster until he kills the scientists because they'd never met him before and his prior despicable acts all happened before the game began. Moxxi could tell that he wasn't really a good person when they were dating, but since he'd been behaving himself, she was willing to help him out.

> Are the sacrificed scientists really the reason Moxxi, Roland and Lilith attempt to murder Jack? Are they fucking idiots for believing they're better than him if they also kill people as easily as he does (no, the story is just bad!)(Also, I'm not referring to the common enemies this trio kills, I'm referring to them fucking trying to kill motherfucking Jack!)?

Yes, the scientists are the driving incident behind the trio's betrayal. The key difference is that Jack killed the scientists because he was worried one of them might be a mole for Zarpedon. We only see Roland, Lilith, and Moxxi trying to kill people based on definitive information, and they don't get innocent people caught up in the crossfire.

> Why the fuck was he doing that if he didn't hate bandits, like Lilith, (hating bantits is his main motive in Bl2. I don't believe he hated Lilith more than he hated anyone else in Bl2) yet?

He does hate bandits; it's just not to the level of 2 yet. He also doesn't see Lilith as a bandit until the end of the game. In the sidequest Boarding Party, you hear his conversation with Angel about the info she's dug up on each of the Vault Hunters he's hired; he's initially hesitant to hire Nisha because she sounds like a bandit, only to change his mind when he hears that her primary victims are other bandits.

tl;dr Go back and play through both games again, because it seems you weren't paying very close attention.

[deleted]
• 7y ago

We've done it we have destroyed this man

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Alexsim798
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago
Everybody you're looking super handsome

> My does Moxxi hate Jack?

Mainly for the stuff he did in tps, like killing the scientists (same goes for Lilith and Roland)

> How is Jack a 'low-level' programmer

This one is a tad confusing. Keep in mind the office in Helios isn't necessarily Jack's. At the end Jack is killing the CEO (Tassiter?) with his secretary asking what's going on. So the office could've been the CEOs until Dahl attacked were then Jack took over.

> Is Timothy's appearance in TPS even canon?

Yes

> Was Jack good at some point

Well yes he was/is. He always had evil in him , the events of tps and opening the moon vault pushed him over the edge

> Time between 1 and TPS

IIRC it's somewhere around 2-3 years. That's enough time for Jack and Moxxi to get together and break up. No Jack wasn't burning bandits. His whole plan was to take over Helios and control the eye, then use the station and eye to take over Pandora, which involves killing Bandits.

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

I assume you aren't done responding. I'll come back in a few hours.

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[deleted]
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago

> Why does Moxxi hate Jack?

As she explained as she tried to kill him, she believes that under everything he's done, him being the Hero and trying to save Elpis he is a "Villian", secretly wanting power to destroy Pandora using The Destroyer.

> Is Jack always bad or does he slowly become bad

Jack was never a bad person per say, he did attach the Destroyer's Eye to Helios however he did say it's for defense.

> Why are Lilith and Roland actually on Elpis?

Literally when you 1st meet them they say it's because they're on vacation due to them giving up the Vault Hunter Gig

> Why do Lilith and Roland agree to help Moxxi? do they hate jack too? (and why?)

This is told to us directly after Jack flings the scientists out of Helios, you hear both Roland and Lilith walk off contacting Moxxi due to what they just saw Jack do and think he's insane like Moxxi claims.

> How is jack a "low-level" programmer if he has control of the entire station (with his own mega office)?

1st off the Office isn't his, it's Tassitor's office. 2nd off he doesn't have control of the station, not even sure were you got that idea, if you mean the defenses then he did after all program them so he would know how they work.

> All that Timothy Stuff

Timothy is a college student who entered the body double program in order to pay off his student loans, Timothy is canon

> How does Jack gain access to the fucking destroyer at all if he's just a low level programmer!

Once again he's a programmer and as shown before it he enters he has to hack the door.

> Is Athena stupid, or is this bs statement enough for her to believe that Jack was good at some point

As she said from her persepctive he is the hero or at least JACK is, some crazy chick attacks Helios and trys to destroy the moon due to them wanting to find a vault. Zapadon looks pretty fucking evil right there, murders workers and trys to blow up the moon right after. All Jack was trying to do is stop her thus making him the Hero

> Why would he sacrifice his life if he's truly evil

Explained by Moxxi, Jack "Fakes" the hero stuff to gain power only for when he gains that power to destroy people

> Scientists enough to kill Jack

Yes actually, Jack had killed 3 people he worked with on the station, but also killed the very person who helped him get back the entire station

> plot holes

Which there is none

> Time gap

about 2-3 years according to Moxxi's echo

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

I wrote that post on mobile with just my thumb! I'm not afraid to put in the work when I need to.

I played the game, I did the research. Me thinks we're defending something just because game developers made it.

Since you haven't answered any of the questions (or sent me a link to any dialogue so good it somehow unfucks this game) we don't have anything to discuss here.

BrineOfEmeralds_
• 7y ago
Easy. Next!

Dude, seriously? He answered all your questions. If you're just gonna ignore someone because you don't like the game, why even make this post?

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

He edited his post after I had already commented. Strangely enough he was actually a bigger dick than I was in this situation.

And you sir, you need to use Reddit more often before assuming how it works. Clearly the answer and the question didn't line up, and you should've been able to see that.

Gillysnote69
• 7y ago

Why are you so angry about this?

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Yiffers_Yiffington
• 7y ago
THE LAVA'S RISING GET TO HIGH GROUND

I think you're just reaching for a reason as to why you think the writing for TPS is bad. The story is cohesive. If you don't like the writing, just say that instead of making a bullshit post pointing out all of the supposed "plot holes".

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

I really just thought they were plot holes.

But... that does make a pretty good argument for how bad the writing is. It's so bad that... I thought it made plot holes.

[deleted]
• 7y ago

Except they aren't and everyone here has already dissproved these "Plotholes"

Yiffers_Yiffington
• 7y ago
THE LAVA'S RISING GET TO HIGH GROUND

You... just proved my point...

Pinga_Daddy
• 7y ago

Nah dude it's only you. I recently played through the game and all the supposed "plot holes" you mentioned were explained in the game. Either you weren't paying attention or a troll.

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[deleted]
• 7y ago

Don't rush the game. Pay attention to dialogue.

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

I didn't rush the game.

As an important figure in the community, and no doubt someone who's extensively played the games, you think dialogue answers all the things I brought up here? I see no evidence of this.

[deleted]
• 7y ago

But you did somehow miss quite a lot of dialogue that would explain many of your questions.

One significant piece is very easy to miss. After you've finished defenestrating the Science Team, Roland contacts Moxxi and says, "Moxxi, we need to talk." This doesn't flash onto your ECHO pane (upper RH corner of the UI), and it is triggered by Roland moving to a certain place in the map. If Roland never makes it to that point of the map because another character interrupted his pathing, or if you turned in the mission in a timely manner, or if you simply weren't paying attention because it isn't cued in the ECHO panel, you will miss this.

After this point, Lilith's attitude becomes hostile, and Moxxi starts plotting.

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

Moxxi, Roland, and Lilith attempt (and for a while, they actually believe that they've done it) to kill Jack (read: they want also commit murder) because he killed a few people.

This isn't a plot-hole, but I don't see how you're content in defending it. This explanation/situation mind numbingly bad, and I had hoped this wasn't what the reason the devs wanted us to go with (which is why I asked the question in the OP. I didn't miss that dialogue, I just can't believe that's actually all there is to it.)

Is this situation meant to be completely ironic? Sacrifice the few to save the many? I can believe this, but that's just not a good thing to implement here. It's a joke.

[deleted]
• 7y ago

Killed three non-combatants who had just significantly helped his effort, due to increasing paranoia. Jack's not just a rabid dog, he's a rabid dog with a planet-smashing weapon at his fingertips.

I am no fan of the writing in the Pre-Sequel. Nevertheless, the plot itself coheres.

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

So the writing just sucks?

Fuck this game!

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[deleted]
• 7y ago

He just killed 3 Innocents who had always helped him while on the station, while also killing the very person who helped him build a army AND take back Helios, that's more then enough to betray Him

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Vannysh
• 7y ago

I loved TPS. And I disagree with you about it being a bad game. Not trying to start an argument or anything I just disagree with you.

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

I feel you.

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Crysisfire
• 7y ago

First angry line, "tps completly ignores anything that happened in bl2"

No shit it takes place between the original borderlands and bl2. Bthe events of bl2 hadnt even happened yet and tps was about handsome jacks rise to power

Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
• Edited 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

TPS released after Bl2, so they can't invent new information that doesn't jive with what eventually happens in Bl2. TPS didn't un-canonize Bl2.

Did you really assume I meant anything other than this?

Example: Why doesn't Jack hold a personal grudge against Lilith in Bl2 (no, no he doesn't. He doesn't hate her more than he hates anyone else)? Why doesn't he hold a personal grudge against Moxxi? He talks about Moxxi a few times in Bl2, and he never even hints at the betrayal that took place in TPS.

Bl2 was fine as is, and stuff that happened in the gap between Bl1 and Bl2 was explained with dialogue and ECHOs in Bl2! TPS didn't need to exist, and it's made the series worst by existing.

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ScootaLewis
• 7y ago

Saving this space for when im on pc and can write a real response.

[deleted]
• 7y ago

You about to roast this man? I support you

ScootaLewis
• 7y ago

Well, I was gonna but it looks like everyone else has done my job as well or better than I would have.

There's really nothing left to say. OP is just a bitter shitter who wants every game to be written by Shakespeare or James Joyce or something.

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Brisslayer333
• 7y ago
Assassins rarely die

Just to be clear, I'm not the one who downvoted you. I await your response.

ScootaLewis
• 7y ago

As mentioned in the other reply, I think my job's been done before I got here. Everybody's saying what I woulda.

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[deleted]
• 7y ago

Why are you so angry? Chill the fuck out man.

Roscoe_p
• 7y ago
Stalks Randy's twitter

Guys quit feeding this troll