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[–]Pixeltiy 34 points35 points  (4 children)

How did the whole idea for Slay the Princess started? Like what was the main inspirations for the game

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 72 points73 points  (3 children)

Slay the Princess almost started as a game jam without the game jam, if that makes sense? Our other game is an Early Access Episodic Horror Visual Novel, which is a difficult thing to market, so we wanted to see if some of our time was better spent on making a second game rather than trying to get people to directly buy our first.

So development started with a few constraints. In terms of concept, we wanted something that had a small number of locations and that only had one character on screen at any given time so it would require far less complicated art on Abby's end.

The original pitch was this: what if there was a monster who changed to take the form of whatever other people thought it to be? You would play as someone given incomplete information tasking you to kill someone who presents as helpless, and through your explorations, this monster would change into something else. Quickly added a time loop component to add an extra layer of intrigue to the scenario, and Abby suggested we call the game "save the princess." From there we realized that "slay the princess" was an untaken name, and that influenced a lot of the general aesthetic. The story wound up developing itself from there, and obviously changed in a lot of major ways by the time we finished the first demo!

[–]CritSrc 10 points11 points  (2 children)

That is amazing on quite a few levels. Frankly it felt more like a classical theater play on storytelling tropes. So wonderfully simple in premise, and wonderfully executed in narrative layering! I'm frankly amazed Abby animated everything as is almost by herself.

Even if you could infinitely reuse the base forest/cabin/cellar, it was always fun with the voice acting each loop!

You would play as someone given incomplete information tasking you to kill someone who presents as helpless, and through your explorations, this monster would change into something else.

Now this makes a lot of sense. However, let me go through a bit of spoiler territory on a symbolic thread that I picked up on. Spoilers: As the Player Character(PC) is basically "The Void", the ultimate aspect of stillness and constancy, it would've made sense for us to actively kill the aspects of the Shifting Mound only for her to be reborn again into an aspect, and each kill made The Void's influence weaker! My point was to show an active display of Order and stillness and how its tyranny is just as unsustainable as raw chaos, and thus truly share an even deeper cruelty between the duo. She is bound, but what if The Void binds her, rips her apart and impales her in a vain attempt to rule as per the Narrator's wishes! Idk if you have such scenes, and I'm almost sure it was considered at some point

But smartly keeping with the small scope, all of you did an EXQUISITE JOB!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

I mentioned this in another comment, but this AMA is overwhelming massive, but we actually did, at one point, have a draft where you went back, one-by-one, and "removed" each vessel you'd contributed to the mound as part of the final encounter before the hero brought you to the cabin. It was a nauseating amount of scope creep, though, and I don't think it would have made the final encounter that much better. If anything, it would have made the encounter far too long.

[–]CritSrc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, the final product is all the better for it! Keep that idea of the inverting that aspect for another time, a dead idea doesn't always have to stay in its coffin (;

[–]Stillstuckin2022 23 points24 points  (4 children)

Okay so

  1. Was there any scrapped princess routes? What were they like?

  2. Amy plans for slay the princess merch? Feel free to skip this one

  3. Why did you scrap the fire in witch's route? In the demo she had a lil campfire

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Scrapped Routes: in the full version of the game, the closest we've come to a scrapped route was the Stranger, who got two separate complete reworks. She was originally going to be a mass of bugs inhabiting a horrific, princess-like skin suitβ€”a representation of the conflicting concepts of "she's just a princess" and "something clearly just ended the world." The bugs also had that thing where the pattern on their wings looked like the Princess' face, which was pretty neat. The main issue we kept running into though was that, while it was a neat route conceptually, we couldn't come up with much interesting content for it, outside of making the first stranger chapter as massive as the first chapter in the entire game, and then branching it off into a million different directions.

Merch: Definitely! Right now we've got vinyl sticker sheets on our store, but once we've recovered from the exhaustion of launching a game, we're going to look into many more avenues for merchandise (and we've got our eyes on doing a hardcover art book.)

The Witch's Fire: a couple reasons! Fire became very thematically relevant for the damsel and prisoner, so we wanted to make it more special in their chapters. By the time I was most of the way done with writing the witch route, I also realized that I had not, in fact, used the fire at all. Rather than shoehorning in yet another outcome, it felt best to cut it, especially since that meant the chapter would be easier for Abby from an art perspective. It was already a very difficult chapter to illustrate because of the detail it takes to shade the roots, so that was for the best. And in terms of the witch having magic, her making the cabin come to life and crush you felt cooler than doing something with fire, and the wild is one of my favorite chapters in the game, and the roots are a fun lead-in to it.

[–]Nurikabeautiful 3 points4 points  (0 children)

God do I hope you follow through on that artbook idea. I need it yesterday

[–]datscray 2 points3 points  (0 children)

and we've got our eyes on doing a hardcover art book.

I want this

[–]Gardyloop 8 points9 points  (0 children)

do not skip 2. I need a The Razor plushie.

[–]Long_Description_747 17 points18 points  (3 children)

why can't the narrator see the mirror? any hints at all?

it's not about the ending so surely it's fine to ask

...

..

.

also true love's kiss is the best achievement.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Without the use of a reflective surface, can you see your face?

[–]PrrrromotionGiven1 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The simple answer is because there is no mirror. In The Den, Voice of the Hunted remarks that you can feel a breeze through where the mirror is.

The real question is, why can you see the mirror?

[–]Chaincat22 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The mirror I assume is your true nature trying to claw its way out of your subconscious. You don't see the mirror in The Razor, after all, because you're completely wrapped up in it

[–]thebrightspot 11 points12 points  (7 children)

Which princess is your personal favorite to write and draw respectively

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 37 points38 points  (4 children)

The Razor was my favorite to write she's so goofy!

[–]Delicious_Ad9970 28 points29 points  (0 children)

β€œAt least now there is a romantic subtext to the murder.” Is one of my favorite lines, in amongst the body horror of the Razor

[–]ScalesGhost 9 points10 points  (0 children)

"The perfect woman!"

[–]thebrightspot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

She was my favorite in game for that reason lol great job

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 19 points20 points  (1 child)

My favorite to draw has gotta be Wraith, her route was so satisfying to work on. She's creepy in a way that suites my design sensibilities like a glove!

[–]Lazydusto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Wraith is my favorite as well. Hits the balance between charming and creepy perfectly.

[–]xXConDaGXx 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Who is your favorite princess? And do you have an ending that you each prefer and why?

And this isn't a question but major props to Brandon because the soundtrack is AMAZING!

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 21 points22 points  (0 children)

My favorite is so hard to choose... my top three have gotta be Nightmare, Tower, and Witch. Nightmare and Tower because they wanna pat me on my little head, and Witch because she reminds me of my cat, Spoons. She was a big influence for both the Witch (daymode Spoons) and Beast (nightmode Spoons.) Nightmode is when she decides she's going to hunt Tony and beat him up for no reason. Daymode is when she does that, but with a more scamp-like, less-deadly energy.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The Stranger is my favorite, and I have my own favorite ending but I'll never tell! The endings were designed so that each would be a valid way to engage with the themes of the narrative, and we want to make sure that every player's first time through the game feels like a special experience. To name a favorite would be to put my finger on the scale in a way I wouldn't want to.

Also I agree Brandon did a phenomenal job.

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much!

(Nightmare is my fav)

[–]idolo312 11 points12 points  (2 children)

Hello, I've already completed slay the princess and I love it, do you plan on making any DLCs or sequels? I just can't get enough of it! Even if you don't, thanks for delivering such a good game. Extra question: Favourite princess?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 32 points33 points  (1 child)

We don't have any plans for DLCs or sequels. I think the game did what it set out to do, and I think any further expansions would run the risk of diluting the experience instead of making it better. That said, we're definitely looking into merch, maybe an art book, and other ways to continue sharing this world and its characters with you all!

[–]Virtual-Oil-793 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We need moah silly waifus

[–]catbelled 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Hi! I absolutely LOVE the game, congratulations on the momentous release!

My question: what inspired you to make the player character an anthropomorphic crow/raven creature? Was he ever more humanlike in any earlier concept art or writing, or was he always a cute birdguy?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 25 points26 points  (0 children)

The Player's design kind of evolved from making sure you felt distinct from the Princess. Since there are only two characters (technically), and you are supposed to be at-odds with one another, it made sense that the Player would be a bit monstrous and almost draconian to balance with the idea of a Princess.

The bird elements were there from the get-go, especially considering the central themes surrounding death, so it was either going to be vultures or corvids, and corvids are cuter and more approachable. As cool as vultures are, they are nasty and famously not handsome. We had to make sure that even though you're a weird bird creature, you're still handsome in your own way, at least in the Princess' eyes.

[–]Mercyful-chance 10 points11 points  (1 child)

What is your favorite part of making your games? Writing, design, coding, fan reception?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I love getting to share our finished products with other people, but for the actual game dev process, I think narrative design is my favorite. There's something I find really appealing in taking a giant mess of ideas and working out the best ways for them to all fit together.

[–]Chaincat22 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I've written this up on the discord a few times, but I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts on what I think is happening in the ending, specifically the Reject Godhood ending. Spoilered for hopefully obvious reasons.

The Narrator and The Mound are pushing a false dichotomy on you. The Narrator wants you to kill Change itself and create a world of Stasis. Even if things aren't literally locked in place, nothing changes. Nothing gets worse but nothing gets better. The Mound wants to simply leave, and continue the cycle and flow of change. Creating and destroying countless worlds. Do these worlds even get a chance to truly live? To blossom to their full extent before they are snuffed out? This isn't a question for you, just a rhetorical for this. Regardless, you create infinite death, far from ideal.

​

To add onto things, they both hold firm to their beliefs without question. The Mound believes that meaning is derived from ending, that the journey is meaningless without an end. The Narrator believes that there must be no more ends, no more changes.

​

Both of them are lying to you, but their lies hold a nugget of truth. The Mound is right, change is important. The Narrator is right, a better world can be made. But the Mound is wrong, meaning does not come from ending, it comes from the journey. It comes from the struggle. It comes from striving. And the Narrator is wrong, stopping anything from changing ever again won't create a better world. That better world the Narrator saw, we can make it come true, but killing her won't make that. The Mound denies the existence of The Center, tells us even in our first meeting that we won't remember her. But The Hero did. And with his help, we find her there, at the center of it all. From the writhing mass of the Shifting Mound, we do what the Narrator did to us, we pluck something conceptual from her. we pluck her core essence of Change. Of Hope. Of Love. And we leave with it, to find that better world. Somehow, with our love, we found some magical solution, some perfect balance, and created that better world. A world without death, but a world still full of meaning. A world full of love. A world full of struggle. A world without unhappy endings. And there, do we live, happily ever after. And though their story never ends, in the depths of their love, it's like the Hero said, they're going somewhere that's just for the two of them. And our time with them is at an end. A happy one.

I don't want to know if I'm right. I know well enough that the point is that it's up to interpretation, that's part of the beauty of it. But I'd like to think I came close to... Something. I don't know. I just really love the idea that in rejecting all other viewpoints, we found a middle path. One that actually, truly made everyone happy. Not an uncomfortable compromise that made everything worse.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! We're trying not to talk about the endings too much because so much of them are open to interpretation, but I appreciated reading this comment.

[–]Chaincat22 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Honestly the endings are great. But that one is easily my favourite. Every now and then I post a random wall of text just going over what I think of that ending at the moment, every new run changes my perspective of it a little as I wrap my head around the nature of everything. The Narrator, the world, the princess, the slayer, and of course their godly forms. Still, it's a beautiful love story, and a beautiful ending. I changed my name on the discord to "Voice of the Hopeful" if you or anyone reading along wants to read my past and current thoughts on it. I'm not sure what I'm getting closer to, really. A more complete understanding? A deeper appreciation? The original authorial intent? Who's to say. Maybe I just want to share how much I love it. It's still my favourite ending of them all, even as I start to play the other endings.

[–]5p0okyb0ot5 8 points9 points  (2 children)

what, in your humblest opinion, is the best vessel/ending design wise? for me its probably nightmare but thats just cause its sick af

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think the Fury has the best physical design, but I'm extremely happy with how every single design in this game turned out!

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I also think the Fury is very cool, even if having to draw her very complicated chestpiece from multiple angles was mind-numbing <3

Same for the Razor, her final form felt like an accomplishment design-wise! And then I had to draw her fighting you and suffered from my own hubris.

[–]ArxiusRA9 8 points9 points  (4 children)

  • Why does Fury come after fighting Adversary unarmed? Seems like a missed opportunity to have it be different.
  • Can we smooch The Spectre if we try hard enough?
  • Are there any plans on any bonus endings or extra endings with any of the Chapter 2 princesses?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I think the Fury, especially coming from the Adversary, is one of the routes where the themes weren't communicated quite as well as I hoped they'd be. The Fury, ultimately, is about someone whose core essence has been denied. Pacifism destroys the Adversary's sense of self, and a mortal bringing down the Tower strips her of her perceived divinity, so she turns to her own flesh to try and find meaning.

Similarly, when you fight the Adversary unarmed, the encounter becomes an unfulfilling form of violence. Your shambling flesh shell is horrifying to her, but more in a way that elicits a feeling of disgust than the feelings of joy she felt dying with you in chapter 1. So, just like being confronted with pacifism, meaningless violence also draws the Adversary's perspective inward to what it means to have a body and a fixation on the flesh in general.

In all routes that lead to the Fury, a new emotional power dynamic is also set: one where she remains physically dominant over the player (even though she perishes in the Tower, she still one shots you) but also one where you've spiritually stripped her of meaning.

Originally, the Fury route was going to end similarly to the Apotheosis, where the Shifting Mound was going to take her away before you could see the outcome of your fight, leaving it more up to interpretation. Abby had this really neat idea for *how* the Fury would fight you, though, essentially by willing your flesh into ribbons and psychically pulling you apart as one would a rug with a loose thread. Too visually cool not to depict, so we changed the script a little to make sure you could see it. (And really, if someone turns you into ribbons with a thought, what are you even supposed to do to stop her?)

For your other questions: what is letting the spectre share your body if not an extremely intimate smooch?

In terms of expanding Chapter 2 routes: I think it's unlikely, but it's not entirely out of the question. We've talked a bit about maybe expanding the Damsel and Prisoner, which Abby's more in favor of than I am, but if we were to expand anything, we would have to have a *really* good idea that warranted the expansion. For me, personally, I'd rather have any given route leave people wanting more than to have it overstay its welcome. Abby also wants me to add that her Damsel and Prisoner expansion ideas are, and I quote "bleakly dark and not in a fun way for anyone. people would not like those outcomes"

[–]MintyCattleman 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I personally really like the adversary-fury route, and I thought the idea of the adversary losing her self worth and identity worked very well. Plus it was my first route in my first play through, so I guess to me it's one of the 'core' parts of how I see the game.

[–]JohnHenryEden91 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We much know cheek kisses for spoopy princess is possible.

[–]merchantarthurn 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know this isn't official but based on how that fight goes/what she says, the Fury appears when she's angry about not having a fun fight - i.e. you go down too easily without the knife and she's not satisfied and looks down on you for it. it also happens if you give up during the armed fight

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I am just starting with python myself. I have never used Renpy before. How much of python have you needed to apply to renpy to make this work, and what else would you recommend for making your own video games, particularly starting with visual novels with renpy, but also eventually making other types of games. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, and I loved the game Slay the Princess. One of my biggest inspirations currently to make my own video games.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I knew 0 python when I started with Ren'py β€” the engine has some great tutorials and comes with a free sample game that you can take apart to get a sense of the basic infrastructure, and there are tons of valuable resources on youtube and the lemmasoft forums to help you get started.

As a new dev, the best advice I can give is to make small projects at first so you can get a sense of what parts of gamedev speak to you, as well as what challenges you'll have to deal with for larger projects. On the visual novel side of things, you can do that by starting out with just single scene, single character projects.

Best of luck on your journey!

[–]M4y0nn415e 4 points5 points  (1 child)

What did the original concept for Slay the Princess look like? Also, any advice or tricks for staying on-task during development?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The original-original concept, which lasted for maybe a day before we added the princess motif, was a lot more modern, and was about dealing with a hostage in a basement who had some of the same abilities as the princess.

The second concept, which lasted until we started work on the second version of the demo earlier this year, saw wholly separate routes for each of the original 6 chapter 2 princess forms (with some amount of mix-and-matching.)

They would all end with an awakening similar to the full game, and you'd have to make a judgment on what to do with her based on the personality she'd built over the course of your interactions. Instead of stacking voices in subsequent chapters, your "companion" voice would change with each beat, getting a progressively worse title until you got the sort of... positive(?) version of that companion, who would help you finally win.

As an example, the cold would become the heartless would become the determined.

This concept as a whole was a lot looser and a lot tougher to write, and didn't feel as thematically strong as what we eventually settled on. I think around demo #2 we also realized how fun the banter between the different voices was, so finding ways to let them interact with each other felt like a better direction to take the game than to have a single voice who got progressively more messed up with each cycle.

On the Princess side of things, a lot of our pivot was to stop the game from getting too stale. Since her different forms have exaggerated personalities, having to loop with say, just the adversary 4 times and then dealing with Ultimate Adversary in the finale felt like it didn't give us a lot of room for variety, and I think it would have gotten pretty dull by the end of it.

I don't have a lot of advice for staying on task, other than to make sure you're as organized as possible! With a complex script like Slay the Princess', if we didn't have spreadsheets and file architectures keeping track of everything, it probably would have been impossible to finish!

[–]benawesome20 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I think Tony mentioned House of Leaves as an influence on the game, what are your thoughts on the book, and any specific pieces of influence it's had you'd like to share?

I've been reading it on and off for a year now and it's amazing but so dense and it takes me forever to get through each chapter. One day I'll finish it!

Love your games btw!! razor my beloved ❀️

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

So to clarify, I didn't start reading House of Leaves until after the script was finished, so that one was a little more of a "oh wow we're on the same wavelength" sort of experience. I also still need to finish the book β€” I got about 100 pages in before the final "put all the voices and art into the game" crunch started.

I think the more direct influences that had a hand in the writing process were Disco Elysium, SOMA, Madoka, and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Madoka in particular has a fantastic blend of the real and the unreal, and I don't want to say too much in case someone reading this comment hasn't seen it, but if you've seen it I think the influences should be readily apparent!

Thank you so much for enjoying our games!

[–]benawesome20 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Oh man it only geta crazier let me tell you then. And ofc PMMM is all over slay the princess, i adore that show. Been a fan of y'all since JSPH so I look forward what comes next!

[–]IndividualIncident55 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Does the princess has a name or is her name really just princess?

[–]NicholeGoodnight 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Or her royal majesty.

Any honorific will do, really.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The Shifting Mound. I saw someone on a livestream call her Shifty, which I thought was cute.

[–]Misha_Zahradnik 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've decided her canon name is now shifty to me.

[–]Afraid-Designer-8229 3 points4 points  (1 child)

What was your favorite princess to design and work on?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 9 points10 points  (0 children)

There's definitely something to love about all of em, but I think my favorite to work on was probably the Witch. I loved drawing her expressions. She's so cute, just like my cat :3

As for design, it would have to be the Wraith, all her art was so satisfying, it came together perfectly and was just a joy to draw.

[–]DasWorbs 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Two questions about StP:

1) Does the main character have a beak?

1a) If he does, how awkward was the kiss with Thorns?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Does the main character have a beak?

"My nature is paradox, as is yours." The protagonist has a beak, and he also does not have a beak.

[–]beardedHornet 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Hi Abby and Tony! Congratulations on a successful launch - it's really well-deserved, Slay the Princess is AMAZING.

  1. During development, were there any Princess forms that got totally cut or radical changes to the gameplay loop (e.g. one route per playthrough -> multiple routes per playthrough)?
  2. How early in development did you decide on Big Plot Shit?
  3. If you could give past Abby and Tony one bit of advice each, what would it be?
  4. After SH, what does the future hold for Black Tabby Games?
  5. ABSOLUTELY NO PRESSURE, but do you think it's possible you might pull a Stanley Parable Ultra Deluxe a decade or so down the line and re-release STP with new routes and animations like in the Fear Fest trailer?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much for enjoying the game!

  1. I think Tony has mentioned this elsewhere, but we started out with a much more gradual shift from the base Princess through her various iterations. You can still see this a bit in the Beast's cabin in particular, it's barely changed from the first cabin (and I should probably update that art, honestly!) But we quickly realized that this was going to be very boring, both for us to write and for players to slog through. Either your decisions would be railroaded along a single route that didn't cross over with others, leading to less choice and player agency in chapters that would go on for longer despite having very little more to say than what's already in the game, or we'd have to account for the player having as much choice variation on any given route as they do at the start of Chapter 1. ie, you would be able to change the Adversary into like, five different Adversaries, a level of variation that would surely put me and Tony in an early grave XD
  2. I.. do not remember. I think it was very early on, though! We like to have all our plot ducks in a row before settling in for the bulk of the work, it means we can sprinkle in foreshadowing and extra plot details along the way.
  3. This is a boring answer, but better layer separations in my PSDs. I came up with a great system that streamlined a lot of the art after a few chapters of practice, but there was some frustration before I figured out exactly how I needed to separate everything. And now revisiting older files is annoying... how dare past Abby use a semi-transparent shading layer instead of strictly cell shading.....
  4. I'll be returning to comics for a few years while we ponder game 3! I know Tony is already conceptualizing what game 3 might be, but I'm just excited to get back to SH and then to my webcomic The Last Halloween. It'll be the first time in a decade that I'll be able to just do The Last Halloween full-time without worrying about how I'm gonna pay rent. Thank you to everyone who has supported the game studio, you are funding my indie comic career.
  5. While nothing is impossible, I am currently at the stage of post-production where opening a file to make steam assets immediately puts me to sleep, so I have no idea XD

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

  1. Stranger got heavily reworked, but if we wanted a given Princess to be in the game, we found a way to make it happen, either in Chapter 2 or Chapter 3 (see: return of the fury.) If you want a breakdown on the Stranger's changes, there should be another comment floating around here with those.
  2. Big Plot Choices were all there since pretty much the moment we started work on the first demo. The Shifting Mound, as a representation of those ideas and The Long Quiet as a sort of "hub world" came later, though, around the time we started work on the second demo.
  3. I think the best advice I could give my past self is to stop being so dang anxious all the time!
  4. After Scarlet Hollow, Abby is finishing The Last Halloween. We have some ideas kicking around for a third game, so I'll probably work on getting that ready for development while she finishes those books.
  5. Not impossible but right now the game feels finished to us. We're both the sort of folks who would rather work on new ideas than milk the old, but if we're gripped by new ideas for Slay the Princess, we'll definitely see those through ^^

[–]Lowlander_2 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hey y'all! Without wanting to ask a super leading question (or spoil too much of the ending to STP, as you're wont to avoid in your opening statement), what would you say was the biggest school of philosophy that went into the writing style of the game? Open-ended solipsism, determinism, some kind of loftier theological discourse, or were you hoping to lean into the meta-textual slant that time loop stories like this often grant?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I personally don't ascribe to a single school of philosophy, so I don't think any one school of thought particularly influenced the writing, at least not consciously. Though some characters hold strong philosophical beliefs, those are more character decisions, and we want the game to be about the decisions players make when engaging with these characters and situations. The Shifting Mound, for instance, holds a rather strong set of views, but she's intended to be her own character rather than a mouthpiece for us as authors.

I will say that despite the presence of metatextual elements, I don't personally consider Slay the Princess to be metafiction.

[–]Ganmorg 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Something I like about the game’s presentation is the little disclaimer at the start, which says something to the effect of β€œthere are no wrong paths, only fresh perspectives, this is a love story.” How did you decide to add this bit to the game, and how did it influence your general β€œthere are no mistakes” design philosophy?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The disclaimer came pretty late in the process (probably mid to late September?) It started as an attempt to very lightly dissuade people from save scumming, and to approach the story differently from how they would other games. I don't know what, exactly, inspired the "This is a love story" line, but it felt immediately right.

This didn't really influence our "there are no mistakes" design philosophy so much as it was some that naturally flowed from it.

[–]frozenphantomtj 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Loved both games so much and I'm glad I could make it here.

Questions:

a. What are Tony / Abby's / Brandon's favorite princesses or routes, if there's any? (I know it'll be hard to pick lol but I hope you all can!)

b. Seeing the fact that some content got put into the build at last second (the shifting mound argument), is there actually NOTHING much you guys would love to add, if you guys had more time and more leeway to work on StP?

I personally just would LOVE to see more interactions and options out of The Fury (it feels anticlimactic right now), and slightly more out of The Grey and The Moment of Clarity. I don't mind if things end exactly the same no matter what in all of these, but it just feels like there's potential for ~5 more minutes of content for the first, and ~2 more minutes on the latter two, respectively.

c. I love the fact that a lot of the content isn't just us talking with the princess, but MC with player and the various voices of the MC. Is my hunch true in that the reason voices other than the narrator exist is partially initially driven by the desire to write comedy into the game? Or was it conceptually conceived for lore reasons first?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 15 points16 points  (2 children)

I like the Stranger. Her whole deal is I think my favorite thing I've ever written.

To clarify point b, the argument wasn't what was cut, it was the white-on-black illustrations that punctuate each beat. Something that I think definitely elevates the emotions of the scene, and that I'm really glad we had the extra time to finish before release.

I think if there's something I'd still like to expand, it's the relationship dynamics with the gestating form of the shifting mound. There was originally a much more complex relationship system underpinning it, but it felt at points that some versions of those scenes were just objectively Better than others, so I cut down on the complexity of those variables. She does, for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th times you meet her, have a range of responses that vary based on a matrix of how frequently she's seen the outside and how many times she's died and whether a vessel, before being taken away, was satisfied with her relationship with you. But I haven't seen anyone catch on to those difference so maybe they're too subtle. Maybe they're just imbalanced and some of the changes are very rare.

That said, I do think one of the things we do well as a studio is cutting content that doesn't work, and that complexity was cut for a reason. Similar to the Fury, where I agree with a lot of people's sentiment that it feels shorter than it should be, but at least right now, I don't have any ideas for expanding her route that wouldn't feel repetitive or frustrating. I mentioned this in another comment, but I prefer to leave people wanting more than having anything overstay its welcome.

I think the Grey and Moment of Clarity are the appropriate length and say the things that I wanted them to say.

For the voices: The Narrator was always going to be there for a mix of antagonism and comedy. The voices actually came into play as a design solution for one of the central mechanics of the game. If the Princess' form shifts to match what others perceive her to be, how can we quantify that? If we ask, at the door to the basement "what do you think she is?" that's far too obvious and immersion breaking, but if we don't have in-game mechanics to quantify it, the princess runs the risk of either being indecipherable or frustrating.

So the voices became a way to give some amount of shape to the player character's perception β€” almost a chatty monkey's paw, if you will. So the Cold, for instance, in his insistence that you did, in fact, kill the princess, forces her into this superposition state where she's both alive and dead (a ghost) putting you at a disadvantage.

This was also why we split the original 6 chapter 2 princesses into 10 for the full game β€” the damsel had romantic overtones to her in the first demo, but obviously not everyone tried to free her for romantic reasons, so we added the prisoner to give more shape to those decisions, and we created a conflict between the hero and the smitten to give more wiggle-room within the Damsel route.

[–]frozenphantomtj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

that's fair, thank you for the answers!

[–]Sudden-Policy6436 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whenever you and Abby were coming up with Damsel what would you say were the main inspirations or motifs around her? Like what words would have used to describe the setting and her character?

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 11 points12 points  (0 children)

My favorite princess is The Nightmare, I love the design, the voices, all of it. I also used it as a chance to pay homage to Little Nightmares in the track

[–]MysticBlob 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Great game! We know what the inspiration is, but when and how did you come up with the specific idea for this game? Was it something different in the beginning or did you always have very clear ideas?

[–]DourApple 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Who made the decision to focus so heavily on the sound design of Slay the Princess? Was it something decided from the onset?

[–]MrCuddles17 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I would be curious on your philosophy of art or what your project would be in art creation /game development, some people make art for self-expression, others to reveal experience of the common, and some to defamiliarize the common, what would you say if anything captures the reason you make games or any art?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's a tough question! For me, this kind of art is about sharing an emotional connection with other people in the world. So a lot of it is self-expression, but if there wasn't an "other" to express that to, I'm not sure I would still do it. Before writing and game design, my main artistic medium was the martial arts, and for that, there was fulfillment in continually finding ways to do things better. I think I feel something similar about writing and game design as well.

[–]WillingnessGreen5342 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Was the vision for the story of this game consistent from the start of development? Or did it change over time with new concepts and ideas? If so, how much do you think it strayed from the original vision?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think I've answered this one piecemeal across a few other responses, if you want to dig through my comments on this thread!

The short of it is that in some ways it's the same as our very early concepts, but in other ways its different. I think the heart of the story has remained the same since the very beginning, but the structure we used to tell it changed a lot over the course of development.

[–]Boudynasr 4 points5 points  (1 child)

1) Are there any plans for DLCs? more princesses? more paths/endings? or it is wrapped up and onto another project?

2)Were there other princesses that didn't make the cut? were some of the live version princesses going to be something else entirely?

​

3) Have you considered marketting the game through big name content creators? or it might not be the best course of advertisement

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  1. Wrapped up for now, but maybe we'll revisit it in the future! We only want to write more paths if they would make the game better as a whole.
  2. Some of the designs from the first demo were changed entirely, but that was mostly because they just weren't working for us β€” a lot of those routes had too many ways you could get there, which meant a given chapter 2 Princess felt thematically mushy and hard to focus on.
  3. If big name content creators pick up our game and play it, that's great! (And we've already had a few.) Generally speaking, we haven't found sponsored videos or streams to be very effective, and I think a big part of that is because once a stream is sponsored, there's a bit of lost authenticity. Like, at that point, is the streamer playing the game because they want to, or because they have a financial obligation?

[–]DCabo0se 3 points4 points  (3 children)

What was your idea/inspiration that made you want to create something like Slay the Princess? Also for Brandon, what inspirations/what was the process for creating the leitmotif heard throughout the game? Also also, how did you guys go about casting the lovely Nichole Goodnight to be the Princess? She even said she thought you had the wrong person when you approached her to voice the Princess

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Sorry for the late response!

The idea behind the leitmotif was I wanted something that could loop indefinitely. When we were first talking about this project, looping was the central idea, so I really wanted to focus on that. I then made a major version and a minor version to build into the various themes.

Tony wanted to use 1 motif and apply it across the spectrum of princesses.

[–]DCabo0se 2 points3 points  (1 child)

That's really thematically cool didn't notice that! Thank you so much for working on the game, your music was something I appreciated throughtout the storyand really made the big moments stand out. Hope to see what you work on next!

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 4 points5 points  (0 children)

☺️ I love to hear that, thank you!

[–]luti3n 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Developers going to make β€œslay the prince” game after princess finished? πŸ˜¨πŸ˜‚

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Leaving that to the world of fanfic! :)

[–]Saluro3 3 points4 points  (2 children)

What was your least favorite part while working on slay the princess?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 8 points9 points  (1 child)

This is a tough one, as really my least favorite part is the inevitable crunch that comes with having a hard deadline-- the time limit and long work days make scenes that would otherwise be a lot of fun into absolute nightmares to finish. The Thorn was the last path I completed art for, and I would usually find intricate backgrounds like that very soothing, but not when every thorn I highlight is another second ticking down on the big deadline clock :,)

That being said, the most difficult conceptually and art-wise for me was the scene where the Nightmare lowers her mask leading up to the Moment of Clarity. That kind of abstract art is already not in my wheelhouse, but on top of that, I was not able to draw on existing symbolism for the most part, as even drawing other human-esque figures when both the Player and the Princess are so far outside of the world and humanity just doesn't make a lot of sense!

Eventually we decided that since she's sharing herself with you, she should be the central figure, and after that it got a little easier, but I still feel like it's a little off since there's clearly so much imagery from our world. But I got it done, and at the end of the day, that's what matters XD

[–]Delicious_Ad9970 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You did great with the Nighmare/Moment of Clarity transition scene(s) it left me feeling a bit of existential horror at the descriptive language.

[–]eastchester-dyreav 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Played Slay the Princess this past weekend and it's all I've been able to think about since. I wonder if you'd talk about the technical process of making the game - what tools/programs did you use, how did you code a branching narrative, and how much did you have planned at the beginning versus how much of the story changed as the project went on? I'm starting the long journey to learning how to make narrative games and love to hear about developers' approaches.

And specifically for Brandon: 1) your music is rad and 2) were you given character/plot notes to prepare for making tracks or did you have to go on vibes alone?

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much, I love to hear that the game has stuck with you!

Our process was basically to tackle each Princess/route one at a time. I’d get notes from Tony and Abby then send them ideas until something sticks.

That’s our process for SH too. I ask for a reference/vibe/script/art and just start shooting ideas to Tabby and see what lands :D

We had some things we wanted to keep consistent (for the most part) use the same motif/chord progression, and try to keep the instrumentation organic.

[–]Ozzie_Scribbler 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Hello, love StP since the first demo! Here's my question: Were Jon and Nichole your first voice acting choices? Did you audition/approach any other voice actors? Who'd you approach if either of them declined or wasn't available for Slay the Princess?

PS: Scarlet Hollow also rules.

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yes, they were our first choices! We're so lucky they both said yes, and that they weren't driven away at any point by the endless repetition they both had to endure to voice act for a game with this kind of narrative structure. They are so professional.

[–]TruffleOil12 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hello! I just wanted to say how much my brother, sil, and I have loved your games! My brother isn't usually a big fan of horror but LOVES both games, and is somehow more excited for part 5 of SH than I am. Do you have any ideas/plans for another game sometime in the future?

And also, the music for both games is incredible. The soundtrack from my first StP playthrough still plays on a loop through my head. Thank you all for the incredible games!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Hey, thank you so much! We have several game 3 ideas we've been kicking around β€” no idea which of them we'll go with, or if it'll be something else entirely, but we'll do something!

[–]thecomicguybook 2 points3 points  (2 children)

You mentioned somewhere that you watch streams and let's play of your games.

What is the most surprising / interesting thing that you learned by doing that? Both Scarlet Hollow and Slay the Princess.

How did you get Stella so perfect? Loved the cooking scene!

How do you balance the prickliness and the nice moments for Tabitha so she remains so likable despite her awfulness?

There was a quick starter goal for another companion (the major), the goal unfortunately was not reached, but any chance of that being added still like with talk to animals?

Just wanted to say that I love the soundtracks btw Brandon. Constantly listening to it, don't particularly have a question but you are appreciated!

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Thank you so much for enjoying our work!

I feel I am constantly intrigued by seeing what choices other people make while playing our games. I can't say I can pinpoint a certain thing that surprised me, as any choice we give people is a choice we figure some percentage of players is going to take, and it's usually just satisfying to watch it play out and function despite the many different ways the story can go.

But that being said, I think the most surprising reactions from fans of both our games have been:

β€’Scarlet Hollow: People liking Tabitha as much as they do. To answer another of your questions, we don't put much work into making her redeemable or likeable, we just present her as the complicated young woman she is, and what people do in reaction to that is entirely up to them! When we first launched Episode 1 I was sure she would be universally hated, and I am continuously surprised that people have grown so attached to her. She's easily the favorite among the fandom. I do think there's something to be said for the weight of a little bit of friendliness from someone who is usually so prickly and awful, there is a certain draw to break through the shell of someone like that and get them to open up even a little bit.

β€’Slay the Princess: I expected basically everyone who played to be suspicious of the Narrator from the get-go, but there seem to be a subset of players that do as he asks without question and think the game is over after ten minutes-- though I suppose that's bound to happen when enough people are playing the game! Again, we give players the options because we know some people will take those options, so it isn't too terribly surprising. And there are also a lot of people who do this as a joke, which I respect.

​

As for Stella being so great, I just imagine her as some of my favorite people, and I think about moments I've spent with those people that feel special! Walking in the woods at night, hearing them talk about their weird fascinations, cooking food together-- especially breakfast. When everyone is tired and no one wants to do anything, there's nothing better than pooling your collective energy and making breakfast food.

And the mayor being added as another optional companion is, sadly, something that will not make it into Scarlet Hollow! It would have been very funny, but unlike Talk to Animals, wasn't something we were planning on adding regardless, and was much more of a "this would probably be neat, let's see if there's interest before committing to something so resource-intensive" sort of thing.

[–]thecomicguybook 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aw, that is unfortunate about the Mayor, he is [a]good boy. Once you finish the game, maybe as DLC? I would buy it!

She's easily the favorite among the fandom.

For me, I think it is just because she is incredibly well written, and sort of the defrosting ice queen trope where you can open up to her, she can open up to you, and she is very helpful despite being kind of a dick especially at the start. Also, [in the mines]she was super helpful and reasonable in my opinion, idk how she was received before that, but episodes 2-4 surely did a lot for her. Also, she is a #girlboss, running a mine!

I expected basically everyone who played to be suspicious of the Narrator from the get-go

Never trust a British man! But in all seriousness, I was kinda thinking of just doing what he says in the first route just to see what would happen, but in the end I couldn't.

I just imagine her as some of my favorite people

Good to hear, I figured that the breakfast scene and stuff contained something real, felt true to life so to say.

[–]orchidlich 3 points4 points  (1 child)

For Tony and Abby: How do you write a game that feels emotionally real in all its variations when there are just So Many possible iterations and paths? How do you go about making it feel like a cohesive emotional journey when the player could've conceivably gone through any number of routes in any order?

For Tony: Was there anything you pulled off in Ren'Py for Slay the Princess that's unexpected for the medium or that you feel particularly proud of?

For Brandon: Can you talk a little bit about how you made the Shifting Mound Movements in particular? Those are some of my favorite tracks, I find them so awe-inspiring and they really pulled together those scenes for me (I'm not ashamed to admit I did start crying).

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you! The shifting mound movements are really special to me. Once I knew we got Amelia on board I proposed to Tony that you only hear her voice when you encounter the shifting mound. That idea turned into this track. So I started with the track it self and sent it to Amelia. She added a TON of vocal takes for me to work with. So the movement turned into this idea where each movement adds more vocal lines as the instruments are stripped away.

I tried to associate Amelia’s vocals with Her whenever possible.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I have no questions.

But I do have a lot of respect for you all for creating a masterpiece. It's a true gem of a game.

[–]MintyCattleman 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Did you ever lose track of the routes while making it? After I had properly played through the game as intended a few times, I decided to go for 100% (partially because I wanted to see that sweet 100% complete bar, and also partially because every other game just felt empty after playing StP), and after a certain point I sort of lost it, and that was after playing it for 2 days so I can't imagine working on it for more than a year.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

100% yes. It got progressively easier the further into the project we got, especially once the end suddenly came into sight, but it was extremely difficult to keep everything straight. Some of the hardest writing was in some of the Chapter 3's, where your choices in Chapter 2 could mean you had a different spread of voices. So there were a lot of dialogue trees that needed to flow organically from two or three or sometimes even four different branches into a central line before veering off again.

Super hard to keep track of all of that while also making it feel organic.

[–]MintyCattleman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well props, I think i would have gone insane trying to organise all of that. But my god it worked out, this is by far my favourite game of the year and its a good contender for one of my favourites of all time. can't wait to see what you guys come up with next.

[–]Deer--Teeth 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Not sure if y'all are taking scarlet hollow questions today so disregard if not but have really been enjoying the game! Not going to lie, I’m just thrilled I get to play i game where I get to date monsterboy Jason Voorhees lol so thanks for that! I am curious though, is writing for Wayne, particularly writing his romance subplot, hard? I feel like part of what draws people to a character like him is the spookiness and the mystery, but a lot of what love is that real lovely mundane intimacy of knowing someone really well and liking them, so I’d imagine it’s be hard to keep the spookiness up if the player’s allowed to actually interact more with the guy. How do you write a romance with a guy how’s main personality point is U N K N O W A B L E E N I T Y?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for playing Scarlet Hollow!

Writing Wayne's romance comes very naturally to me as a lifelong Phantom of the Opera enjoyer.

There's just something so intriguing about someone who clearly wants to make a connection with you, but for one reason or another, is holding themselves back. Makes you want to chase them into the shadows, you know? There's definitely a chance that when Waynemancers finally manage to catch him, it turns out they won't like the person they were chasing, but that's part of the drama of it all and part of what makes the chase interesting. Making yourself known to someone while they remain unknown to you is inherently risky, in a thrilling sort of way!

Honestly, I have a lot more difficulty writing the romance scenes between normal human characters, even though I myself am a normal human happily married to another normal human. Thankfully, Tony is really good at picking up the slack on those scenes and nailing the human love interests.

[–]enharmonicdissonance 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Scarlet Hollow questions on behalf of a few people in the Discord:

  1. How much does Bo deadlift?
  2. When will someone with Powerful Build be able to arm wrestle him?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

HM I WONDER WHO ON THE DISCORD ASKED THESE QUESTIONS

Bo has never lifted a proper set of weights in his life, but he's lifted some pretty big pumpkins.

[–]DanganMachin 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What would be your advice to any new indie game developer ?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Marketing starts before you start development, and beyond that, marketing isn't just buying ads or telling people about your game. It's about every decision you make that's going to influence whether or not people play your game.

I've found the howtomarketagame blog and community immeasurably helpful over the past couple of years. https://howtomarketagame.com

Beyond that, I think it's important to not chase trends for the sake of chasing trends. Make something that you're passionate about, but find a way to make those passions appeal to other people.

Apologies if this response is too focused on the business side of things, but it's an often neglected side of indie development!

[–]DanganMachin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No that's precisely what I wanted, thanks for your advices !

[–]Zeldacrafter_Swagg 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I just have two questions about STP please:

1) Are there any scrapped princess concepts that didn't make the cut?

2) Was it a willing decision to put vore in the game or did it just happen like that?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Tony talked a bit about some scrapped designs in another answer (specifically about the Stranger and her various iterations before she finally came together), and besides that we've had a couple jokey Princess concepts like Clown Princess that never went anywhere beyond jokes. We mostly wound up adding Princesses as we went more than scrapping them!

As for the vore, it just kinda happened XD It was an exploration of what is horrifying about being below something on the food chain, and both Tony and I find the thought of being dissolved slowly absolutely horrifying. I would honestly consider the Beast swallowing you to be the most unsettling part of the game, at least for me. And it was a lot of fun to draw, that kind of visceral horror is my comfort zone art-wise!

[–]Hell_Mel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

visceral horror is my comfort zone art-wise

This is the best quote.

[–]Kallandar 1 point2 points  (2 children)

What would you say were inspirations when it came to the structure and tonality of the game? I just binged a full play through yesterday and loved it!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

We wound up settling on the final structure more because it was the best format to explore the ideas we wanted to explore rather than it being directly inspired by anything.

For tone, a few inspirations:

  1. Disco Elysium
  2. SOMA
  3. Neon Genesis Evangelion
  4. Florence + the Machine (esp. Ceremonials)
  5. The Stanley Parable
  6. Madoka Magica
  7. Your Name

[–]bertuzzy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I KNEW IT! When I saw "The Look" it immediately sent me to "The Expression"

[–]AtomicAtaxia 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Are you open to adding new routes and endings as DLCs or updates?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

It's unlikely, but we're both so flattered that so many people have been clamoring for DLC. I think extra time we spend on making stuff for Slay the Princess will be more in the merch/art book direction β€” ways that people can continue to engage with the world without running the risk of diminishing the game with extra bloat.

If we have a lightning bolt idea, though, we're not opposed to revisiting the game. It just has to be really good.

[–]Delicious_Ad9970 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A mention of the Shambling Mound and the Long Quiet as a pair of wandering entities in a different game would make for a good callback or epilogue to their story.

[–]Gardyloop 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Looking back, which Princess route hits you emotionally the hardest?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I think for me it's Moment of Clarity, especially with the context of her lines in the finale. The thought of showing your innermost self, with the vague hope that maybe it won't drive the person you care about away, only to have them react with fear and revulsion, definitely hits hard. Notably, she puts the mask back on before you can see her again, cracked though it might be.

[–]Sudden-Policy6436 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What is the cutscene after you choose to reman with the princess supposed to represent? Is the princess just stuck living for 80 years then dying only to repeat the process?

[–]Gardyloop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Heck yes! The feeling of anxiety and happy-bittersweet-pain of sharing yourself with someone and the vulnerability that comes with it is my favourite theme of the game. All the art, writing and music absolutely nailed that for me.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What was the process of designing each path and princess like? for example did you design a princess's look then try to make a path or was it more complicated? Also on extension to that, what was the most fun path to work on? My favorite to playthrough was The adversary's and Witch/Thorn's.

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 8 points9 points  (0 children)

For the initial set of Princesses, we set out with a few designs already in mind, then loosely lined those up with some of the basic decisions we were mapping out. We knew we wanted a demon-esque Princess and a catgirl Princess, as well as one that was overtly scary (what would become Nightmare) and an anime Princess (Damsel) for good measure. Once we'd started work on the script, we knew we would need Princesses to fit certain decisions that developed naturally as things were fleshed out, and from there the designs were always informed by the choice that led to them!

We did a lot of conceptualizing on long walks, fleshing out both a given Princess' motivations and what kind of cultural touchstones would best suit them, then I would jot down sketches until both Tony and I were happy with the look. Since we work in the same house and are basically glued at the hip, we were able to check in with each other frequently to make sure the Princess designs were matching the script and felt like cohesive characters!

As an example of our process, the Wraith, which was one of the most satisfying paths for me to work on (probably my favorite), can be reached by either killing the Spectre (who you already murdered once), or killing the Nightmare (which unsurprisingly makes her both dead and mad.) That means she was always going to be one of the less cutesy, more scary Princesses, since she is extremely fed up with the Player. Since she's a fusion I pulled some inspiration from both existing designs, such as withered corpse-like skin from the Nightmare and the little "x" where the knife sank in from the Spectre, but from there she was able to become her own special thing. I was really able to lean into the horror aspects, which was a lot of fun!

[–]WildMboi 1 point2 points  (1 child)

So… how difficult was it for the two of you to do Alll of the voices in the game? As well as coding and designing?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We didn't do the voices! Those are Nichole Goodnight and Jonathan Sims, who both knocked it out of the park. ^^

The rest was a difficult but extremely fun year!

[–]YupImNotAMurderer 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What are your thoughts on the Narrator from StP, do you trust them or don't, what would you do in its scenario if you went in completely blind?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He's just doin' his best, even if he's not very good at it. Can you blame him?

[–]talldarkandundead 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How did you go about writing out the script for Slay the Princess when there’s so many possibilities? Is the whole game written out on paper/a word document somewhere or were some ideas kind of floating until you started getting the code together?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wrote the script for Slay the Princess directly into Ren'py which helped me organize my thoughts a fair bit. A lot of it, though, did have to live in my head for an extremely long time. It's nice to finally have it out in the world instead of rattling around in there for months on end lmao

[–]talldarkandundead 1 point2 points  (1 child)

What’s everyone’s favorite songs from the soundtrack (if you can pick one)?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Unknown Together :)

[–]Misha_Zahradnik 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Do you worry at all that some of the thirst posting undercuts some of the points made in the game? Obviously there's room for people finding the characters attractive, but I keep flashing back to the Damsel route when I see it or post it myself. And part of it is I don't see nearly as much Slayer content, though some of that is them being the perspective character.

  2. Is a future update with fem voicing for the voices as an option for players who might vibe with that in the deck at all? Even if it's contingent on the game going crazy for sales?

  3. Are there any "adult" themes you would prefer people avoid regarding this game due to moral stance or personal comfort?

  4. What is each of y'all's least favorite princess. Not saying you don't like them, but that out of all of them she's the one you enjoy least as a character or from a craft perspective (hard to animate/draw, rough voice, etc)?

[–]jumpyfrogs225 1 point2 points  (1 child)

For Scarlet Hollow, you've been coming out with some really cool posters and keychains... can you tell us if there are similar plans for Slay the Princess merch? :>

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We don't know what it'll be, but there'll be pleeeenty of StP merch to come :D

[–]thebrightspot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is just a theory but if you're willing to humor me:

Is the main character being a beast man cheeky play on "Beauty and the Beast" in title?

And is the narrator a reference to Edgar Allen Poe's "The Raven", which continuously echoes the same reminder of lost love to the subject?

[–]Person_756335846 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Did the reactions to your Demo have any substantial impact on the final release? If so, what were they?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A few! The scale of interest definitely made us more comfortable expanding the original idea into what eventually made it to release, so we're grateful for that! There were also a few obvious pain points with the demo experience that we worked on addressing in the main release, most of which wound up being resolved by expanding the list of Chapter 2 Princesses from 6 to 10.

There was a shift between the two releases where a lot of people left the first demo very in the dark about the underlying rules the Princess operated on, but a *lot* of people seemed to understand her relationship with perception after they played the second demo.

[–]HedgehogDecent5707 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The narrator said that he saw what death meant which I suppose implied he had people close to him who died. Could you tell us more about who he was and what led him to do all this? Or do you maybe plan to explore his story in some other game or expansion?

[–]enharmonicdissonance 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hey Abby and Tony! Congratulations, these games are incredible and I can't get enough of them! You've got amazing teams and talent for them. I have a couple questions about Slay the Princess:

  1. When it came to developing all of these branching paths, how did you determine which Voices would show up in later scenes? Were they all based directly on player's dialogue choices (like, your internal monologue), or are some of them a reflection of the Princess, too? Though asking who changed who may be a chicken or egg situation.
  2. It sounded like the idea for Slay the Princess came up organically during the development of Scarlet Hollow; is that about right? If so, were there specific characters or relationships you can tell us about from Scarlet Hollow that inspired StP, or was the inspiration more from the general themes of the game?

Thanks so much, looking forward to see where you take everything next!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

When it came to developing all of these branching paths, how did you determine which Voices would show up in later scenes? Were they all based directly on player's dialogue choices (like, your internal monologue), or are some of them a reflection of the Princess, too? Though asking who changed who may be a chicken or egg situation.

Oooh, I was hoping someone would ask this question. It's a factor of two things β€” one is roughly tied to how you died/what you were trying to do. In general we wanted the "chapter 3" version of a voice to be more helpful than not, whereas we wanted the "chapter 2" appearance of a voice to be more detrimental to your actions, giving an opportunity for each of the voices to be both at their best and at their worst in different parts of the story. (See: Smitten in Damsel who is awful, and Smitten in Thorn who is rad)

The other bit is I have an enormous spreadsheet tallying the appearance rate of each voice to make sure they wind up relatively balanced. I'm happy with the end results. Every voice can appear in at least 5 chapters, and the Stubborn, the most overrepresented voice, can appear in 6. In terms of raw dialogue, the Stubborn has the most at 313 lines, and the broken has the least at 170. I'm extremely happy with how tight that spread wound up being.

For your second question, Slay the Princess came up organically during Scarlet Hollow's development, but more as a the result of some brainstorming on game ideas we could do to make sure we had enough funds to finish SH without aggressively derailing its development cycle.

[–]Chaincat22 1 point2 points  (6 children)

We know that, apparently, there's corners and stiff drinks in our head. What else do the Voices get up to? Are there bean bags and a pool table, too?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I like to think that they have minesweeper.

[–]redbird7311 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You mean mindsweeper

[–]Chaincat22 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Can we play The Hero in minesweeper?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

single-player game

[–]just-a-turtleduck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

but if we're a paradox, and it's our mind...?

[–]Chaincat22 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No you see, he goes first, and then I go after and try to beat his time

[–]HermitViolet 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You've mentioned the games that inspired Slay the Princess – Disco Elysium and Stanley Parable, but are there any literary inspirations? If so, what are they?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Literary references is a tough question, since I mostly consume TV/movies/games as my media these days. I know some folks have compared the game to House of Leaves which I started recently and have been deeply enjoying, but I didn't start that one in time for it to have much in the way of influence.

It's been a while since I've read it, but GΓΆdel, Escher, Bach had a strong impact on me back in the day, and I can definitely see some influences coming from there as well.

[–]Boudynasr 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How long have you guys been cooking this gem?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We first came up with the idea in May of last year, and spent about 7 months of full time work developing it ^^

[–]TheSilverStorytell 1 point2 points  (1 child)

As much as I seriously love the game, a common complaint I’ve seen is that the demo didn’t really convey what the full game was about very well. Was the final product always what the grand design was intended to be? How much did the game evolve between the earliest drafts and the final product?

Also, niche though the game has been, it's been overall very positively received. And I know it's a selfish thing to ask, but people (myself included) always want more of a good thing. Is there even the slightest possibility of expanding the game at all? Edit: This question has already been asked repeatedly, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a tad disappointed. I'm of the opinion that it is very hard to have too much of a good thing, but its nice to know that the game and story exists in a state that ya'll are very satisfied with.

Also also, because I have the burning desire to know, and if its not to personal to ask, I see Tony and Abby share a surname. Are you a brother-sister duo, or husband-wife duo? Or just freak coincidence? Because the former two would just be the most precious thing ever, and I want that to be the case. :P

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The demo! I've seen some comments and while I wholly understand where those folks are coming from, I think that what they specifically wanted would have been either: a) not a very good game, in which case they probably still would have been disappointed, or b) not a project with a finish-able scope, in which case they could instead have been disappointed in the game never releasing. To expand on a) maybe someone else could have made that into a good game, but I don't think it would have worked coming from us.

I've spoken about earlier drafts of the story structure in other responses, but the final shape of the game is quite close to the original, the only main difference being the "meta loop" layer added on top of the other loops. This meta loop let us do even more horizontal exploration of choice without being flattened by exponential scaling, and it also provided us an easier framework to allow the princess to have more depth overall. The main story beats about godhood and the fear of death and change as well as the narrator's role are all the same as the first concept, you just get there a little differently in the full release.

As for more content, if we have an idea to expand the game that moves us, we'll do that, but right now we don't have those ideas, so our Slay the Princess energies are going to be directed more towards merch and maybe an art book. It's not completely out of the question, but it would have to be a really good idea.

As for our shared last name, we're married! I hyphenated with Abby because she already had a career as a well-known graphic novelist ^^

[–]VixieVonKarma 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Hello! Your game drew me in from the artsyle and vibe, but I wholly bounced off of it because of how off the rails it got instantly, simply because I declined the quest at the start.

Instead of what i feel like wouldve been a long build up with the narrator and the princess, I was instead transported to a seemingly endgame state, with cosmic horrors and an intense lack of agency or investment into anything that was happening.

I guess my question would be: is this an intended state for a first playthrough? How could the player care about the story when it implodes on itself within 5 minutes making the choices i did?

I very much went into this game wanting to love it. I admire your work! Im sorry it didnt grip me.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I personally think that the route you took is one of the more interesting ways to play the game, and adds some compelling bookends to both sides of the story, but I wholeheartedly understand why people might bounce off of it! So you really don't have to apologize to us ^^

Something that we wanted to avoid with Slay the Princess was holding the player's hand at any point and telling them what to do next. If you want to turn around and leave repeatedly at the beginning of the story, that's a valid avenue of exploration, and it's also a valid avenue of exploration to do exactly what the narrator tells you to do and roll credits in five minutes.

The route you stumbled on was specifically written to convey the vibe of "peaking behind the curtain too early, and without the context necessary to really understand what you see." For some people, that'll be a compelling hook, and for others, it's just going to be off putting.

[–]antiquewhite 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also played this way. At first I worried I had done some irreversible damage to having the Correct Playthrough Experience, but slowly realized this was just another way to play it and that hooked me more. So yeah, it might be a gamble if it is off-putting or not, but it worked well on keeping me interested.

I think being given the option to do something potentially "game breaking" or that plays with the fourth wall and rewards players who want to see how far they can mess around with the mechanics of a game was an awesome choice.

As soon as I finished STP I went on to play SH and it will not surprise you that I was the player who turned away from every door in the haunting. And I loved how that was handled too.

[–]EcoFriendlyNinja 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Hello!

Any idea when profile pictures and wallpapers for slay the princess will be added to the steam points shop? Would love to flex support for the game.

Thanks for the awesome game!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Once Valve approves 'em! Hoping we'll get the trading card related stuff out within the next week. Point shop is going to have to wait awhile since we'd need to make brand new art for it.

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for your interest in extra StP steam goodies! I'm currently working through edits to get them approved, there are a few things I'll have to fix before they can go out. But it should be pretty soon if all goes well, probably sometime next week!

[–]Eviae 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not so much a question as much as a comments: but you guys have some of the best writing and narrative I have seen in a game to date. Keep up the fantastic work! We love y’all!

[–]AQuaintHat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Brandon, the sound track is beautiful and I love the variations on the same motif. How did you come up with the "through-line" that underlines all of the different tracks? Do you have a track you like most?

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you! That motif is something that just kind of popped in my head while I was playing around on the piano. I wanted something that could loop back into itself seamlessly. Starting with the major version, the ones you hear in The Princess/Damsel/etc. the harder part was figuring out the minor version. Without going too far into the musical weeds, the minor version has a really bizarre progression, and I don’t really remember how I came up with it 🫠

I have two fav tracks- Transformation and The Apotheosis. My favorite thing about this soundtrack was working with Amelia Jones. It was a great time working with her, and she’s insanely talented.

[–]RUBecSO 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Did you start out with a clear idea of the themes you wanted to explore or did they emerge from the mechanics / reactions to the demo / otherwise during development?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We knew from day 1 that we wanted this game to be able to explore death and relationships in general as major themes, but in terms of what kinds of relationships we wound up exploring in the full game, a lot of that emerged organically as part of the writing process.

For the original demo, we essentially started with the core concept of chapter 1. Princess in the Cabin (she changes based on your thoughts), Pristine Blade on the Table, Narrator in your ear. From there, we reached out list of 10 chapter 2's by exploring as many permutations of choice within the chapter 1 scenario that we could think of, so:

  • What happens if you just run away?
  • What happens if you take the knife down?
  • What happens in you don't?
  • What happens if you try and free her?
  • What happens if you kill her straight away?

And from there, we thought about what transformations would be interesting for each of those scenarios. Some, like the Spectre, were immediately obvious β€” you killed her so she's a ghost. Some, like the Razor, came late in development β€” her killing you with a hidden knife is different than punching you, what can we do with that? And some were, frankly, a real struggle (Stranger, cough.)

And themes flowed easily from there. The Stranger is a really weird/interesting case because her themes were immediately evident, but figuring out how to actually depict them in the game was a massive challenge that required two total redesigns.

[–]This_is_a_Bucket_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hi, I've been completely captivated by your game ever since I tried out the first demo and loved every second of the completed game. Congratulations on your release, I hope it was as successful as you had hoped ! I have a few questions:

-The Stranger is dramatically different to what was shown in the game (cabin, appearance, voice). What was the reason you decided to axe the old version and completely revamp it ?

- Did you always plan to have the playthrough style you chose, where getting one ending loops you back until you get five, or did you initially plan it to be different ? Where you initialy planing on just making the player play one ending to the very end and making them start a fresh save for example ?

-In the Halloween teaser trailer, The Nightmare is shown be a giant mass of worms masquerading as the Princess. In the final version however, pulling off the mask doesn't reveal that, instead showing a lengthy animation about solitude. What was the reason this decision was made ?

- Last one: I'm not so sure about this one, but in the games files, there are 2 sprites that I believe go unused, "princess d scared p" and "princess d scared talk p", which appear in the same folder as the princess' distant sprites for ch1, showing the princess struck by fear. What where these for ?

Thanks for the AMA !

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for playing! ^^

I think the first few have been answered by Tony elsewhere, but as for the Nightmare, her design went through a few iterations before we were fully satisfied, but due to the fact that the turnaround on this game was so tight, a lot of our promo had to be done before the later Princess designs were really solid. This means there are a lot of artifacts from the design process present in our promos. We often have to make trailers for big events and showcases, as a lot of them require exclusive trailers, so we would have to cut together concept art not knowing whether that would be the final design or not. Even in our fancy animated trailer, we were working from what had been completed, and most routes didn't have solid art yet beyond what was in my sketchbook.

When Tony finally settled on what exactly the Nightmare was going to do, it wound up being much more abstract than any of my designs, so it was back to the drawing board!

And as for unused sprites, for any main sprite set (ie, not the big events and action scenes, but the conversations) I'm given a list of "vibes" like scared, angry, cocky, smiling, etc, and go ahead and make a full range of emotions for each set. Sometimes some of the sprites don't wind up getting used because they didn't fit any particular line!

[–]Cleinhun 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Do you think you'll end up making any other smaller games before scarlet hollow is finished, or are you back to that full time?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Back to Scarlet Hollow full time! Slay the Princess has given us the funding we were going to have to look for from a publisher to finish all 7 episodes of Scarlet Hollow, so now that we're able to continue being an independent studio, we're very excited to get back to it. It'll be nice to write in a more down-to-earth setting after working on something as abstract as Slay the Princess, as fun as it was.

[–]XChatxKilluaxNoirX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Do you think there is a chance of adding 8th and/or another trait for Scarlet Hollow? Maybe once all the episodes are completed?
  2. Do you think you will ever release the games (Scarlet Hollow and Slay The Princess) physically in some way? Probably once SH is completed. I would love to buy these games physically.
  3. Did SH and/or STP (you can do either or both or whatever) and/or it's characters have an inspirations? And if so, what were they?
  4. I don't know if you will be able to answer this one, because it might be too spoiler-y. But are there any upcoming routes and/or character stuff you are really/most excited for in the upcoming episode(s) of SH?
  5. Last of all, did you have any favorite princesses and The Voices the Protagonist/Hero could get in STP?

You don't have to answer all of these. These are just some of the questions that sprang to my mind. Really excited to be able to participate in this AMA!

[–]coazervate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh shit I had no idea a Abby Howard worked on this. I've been a fan since that penny arcade game show lol. Did any of your comic OCs get into this game?

[–]iamnotoriginal 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Is it stupid of me to have thought this was something to do with Slay the Spire this whole time?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nah Slay the Spire kicks ass

[–]ETHERBOT 1 point2 points  (5 children)

What was the pipeline like with regards to music? Like, at what stage was the music being written? During the writing process? After the finished artwork was in?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

The music pipeline was an ongoing process since we knew it was a giant task. As soon as the general feel of a route was solidified, we'd send the general emotional tone we were looking for to Brandon, as well as music that felt like it was in the right ballpark for mood. A lot of the tracks were finished before there was much in the way of artwork for a given Princess.

If we had art or script we'd send that along, too.

We've been working with Brandon for years now, so we're at the point where we have a strong rapport and can communicate what we want pretty easily. The man's absolutely brilliant, though. I don't get how he's able to turn around so much so fast and make it all good.

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Here to second what Tony said! I always ask for any kind of script or art or general vibe. I love working closely with Tony and Abby, so I’ll send over ideas until we hit the mark, with the option to change if needed in the future (like the stranger).

[–]ETHERBOT 1 point2 points  (2 children)

was there any track or piece of musical material that took especially long to nail down?

[–]Wondrous_SoundComposer | Black Tabby Games 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think conceptually we were all on the same page throughout most of the game and OST. The Stranger had the most changes from start to finish, but as far as time spent getting the track right goes, The Apotheosis and Transformation were the most difficult and time consuming.

[–]ETHERBOT 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thank you :> thats all super interesting to me

[–]AQuaintHat 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What inspired you to make Slay the Princess?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's hard to point to a single source of inspiration for anything. But with Slay the Princess, it came from thinking about what a second game with a quicker turnaround than Scarlet Hollow would look like. So the big question was: what's a story with few locations and few visible characters? I don't know exactly where "monster who changes based on your perception of her" came from, but once we had that, the rest sort of naturally followed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Best Princess?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The Stranger is my favorite :)

[–]draciachan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First I want to say that I love StP, the art style and the voice acting! Already replayed it more than once and still have a lot to discover!

Are there any big inspirations behind Slay the Princess or each of the Princesses?

[–]Praxry 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Are you gonna make more merchandise for Slay the princess?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

definitely!

[–]Mikhos 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I just want to thank your team, composer and the incredible voice performance by the cast for making one of THE BEST games of 2023 to play.

Were you ever tempted to go deeper in any routes, despite it kind of taking away from the looping or push the game too far into dating sim territory? Thorn in particular feels so fleshed out, it's heartbreaking letting the Shifting Mound take her away even if that's the fate of all vessels.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thematically, I think all of the routes ended where they needed to end.

That said, we did have something where, as part of the Shifting Mound fight, you would have to go back and "resolve" those final story beats as a way of depowering her (i.e. finally fighting the apotheosis or fury), but it added way way way too much bloat to the encounter, and would have been SO much extra work on Abby's end for very very little narrative benefit. I didn't get very far in the script for that either β€” it was way too overwhelming.

I think that final encounter, as it stands now, is the correct length.

[–]TheSadman13 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wishlisted and trying to avoid spoilers until I can get around to it so I'm only reading between the lines, congratulations on putting together such a cool looking game & hope it's a sign of things to come, can't wait to try it!

[–]hnwcs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Slay the Princess was an amazing experience all around, but I think my favorite part was the Shifting Mound bringing up all the vessels you brought and saying what it means about you. I love games that act as a sort of personality test that reveal something about yourself at the end, and it’s a shame it’s not more common.

I know the end of Scarlet Hollow is a long way away, but is there any chance of a similar β€œjudgment” scene near the end, or at least a Telltale-style post-game recap of your choices?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your decisions in prior chapters of Scarlet Hollow will factor heavily into the remaining episodes of the game. I'd like to put together some sort of sharable chart that players receive about their choices after the credits. Sort of like the playlist you get at the end of Slay the Princess.

[–]Tiny-Condition-2606 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If you could make a sequal to StP, would you and if so how?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think sequels all too often undermine the originals. At least for now, we don't have enough new ideas we'd like to explore that would warrant a sequel, and we'd rather spend our time developing new IPs after we've finished with Scarlet Hollow (and after Abby finishes The Last Halloween) ^^

[–]Tiny-Condition-2606 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Makes sense.

What about possible refferences or hints to it within later stories? Not a direct "Here is what occured after this/ direct explination" but more like how Bungie keeps making refferences to Pathways into Darkness and Marathon.

[–]iwatoris_greed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey! I’m really curious as to what y’alls creative workflow is like at the beginning of a project? I’m sure there are many stories that you can tell; what made you guys choose these particular stories? And how do you go about writing the β€œlines” or β€œpaths” in your interactive stories? Is it something you kind of β€œknow” you wanna tell or is it more of a β€œthe story creates itself” along the way?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Are there any plans to release on consoles? Playstation/Switch?

[–]Keretor 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hey, got a couple of questions all relating to Slay the Princess, so feel free to answer whichever ones you guys like

First, What was the process for developing the different routes? As in, a route going from Chapter 1 to a possible Chapter 3, some of them go through some very wild directions, were these planned from the start or after say, one of the demos?

Second, and this is similar to the first question, were all the important concepts to the game's story and message (Narrator being an echo of a mortal, the protagonist and princess originally being the same entity that were split into two gods, and so on) planned from the beginning, or did the game start out from the smaller scope of the demo/s?

Third, what was the original inspiration for the game’s story and themes?

And fourth, how was development time split between the different aspects of the game? (Writing, Art, Music, Coding, etc)

PS. Thank you so much for making such an incredible game! It was such an indescribable experience for me, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Hello hello!

Developing the paths for each route was kind of like aggressively planning a D&D campaign for a party that you know is going to go horribly off the rails. We have a situation, we have an environment, and we have some constraints (a given Princess' attitude towards the player and what your voices want to do.) From there it came down to thinking about all of the things a player would want to do, and then asking ourselves what would happen next. If a course of action felt like it provided an adequate resolution to that story of the player and the princess, it would lead directly to the shifting mound, otherwise, we had to tie it into a chapter 3 for that resolution.

Then it just became a question of "what is that chapter 3 going to be and how does it resolve the conflict in a way that leads to the long quiet." In a couple of instances, it felt like a pair of chapter 3 circumstances were very similar, so we have 4 chapter 3's that function as a sort of "fusion" for two separate chapter 2's.

And then the Razor is her own thing.

For the second question, we'd decided on most of the major plot points and reveals by the time we'd finished the first demo β€” in fact, one of the earliest pieces of concept art abby drew for the entire game was what became the final design for the shifting mound.

For inspirations, it's always hard to tell exactly what inspires a given decision, but a list of media that I feel inspired Slay the Princess in some capacity is:

  1. Disco Elysium
  2. SOMA
  3. Neon Genesis Evangelion
  4. Florence + the Machine (esp. Ceremonials)
  5. The Stanley Parable
  6. Madoka Magica
  7. Your Name

For time splitting, it was really just whatever needed to get done. Abby continued working on the script for Episode 5 of Scarlet Hollow for the first few months I was full-time working on the script for Slay the Princess, and once I had a few routes finished, she got started on the art. Everything else was just juggling people's schedules β€” giving Brandon as much as we could in terms of musical direction while we were still writing; lining things up with when our voice actors were free. A real logistical nightmare I don't know how giant studios do it.

[–]Keretor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for all the answers! Having played TTRPGs myself, imagining StP as a chaotic D&D campaign with either reasonable players or just 'murder hobos' is a hilarious image and definitely sounds like a great way to approach designing the branching paths, also love the possible inspiration from Your Name for the romantic part of the game (Even its time shenanigans could serve as inspiration now that I think about it), it's a beautiful movie

[–]flowergirlsunder 0 points1 point  (4 children)

since people have already asked favorite princesses, what were your favorites of the voices in your head?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I'm a simple woman, I'm a Voice of the Cold enthusiast. I like to imagine him standing creepily in the back while the other normal guys talk.

[–]flowergirlsunder 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ur so right…!

[–]clairejv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A friend said he sounds like Dr. David, and I have to agree.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Opportunist was definitely my favorite to write, he's such a lil' shit.

I'm also very fond of the Contrarian, mostly because we got to right a fun (if rarely seen) character arc for him

[–]Error364 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Based off the last beta what made you change the stranger route

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To be honest, she just wasn't fun to write, at least for anything past the demo. I also think her voice, while great for one or two lines of dialogue to unnerve people, would have been extremely difficult to listen to over the course of an entire route. I know she was a lot of people's favorite, but I'm also extremely happy with how she turned out in the full game, even if her best content takes a bit of digging to find ^^

[–]InsaneComicBooker 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thank you for doing this AMA. Me and my friend would like to know how much has the Stranger's route changed, compared to the early plans?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

She changed so much. She used to be a swarm of bugs wearing a Princess skin β€” more about trying to communicate with an alien intelligence than anything else, and really diving into the contradiction of "she's just a princess" and "she definitely destroyed the world i watched it happen."

In the full release, she became more about peaking behind the curtain before you could understand what was there, and the nature of choice in the face of the infinite. Those were both themes we did want to tackle with SwarmOfBugs Princess, but it just wasn't coming together on the writing side. Very happy with how she turned out in the full release.

[–]InsaneComicBooker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for replying, it's so cool. Love your games :) My best regards to the hwole team.

[–]Error364 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What made you decide to add voice actors to the game STP

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mostly because it was small enough for the scope of voice acting to be manageable, and because we were able to find some strong voice talent for it.

We can't add VA to Scarlet Hollow because when that game's done it's going to be over a million words long and I'd die if I had to edit that much dialogue.

[–]tubalubz 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What is the intended effect Slay the Princess was designed to have on the player? Is there any key message/takeaway that it was created with in mind? How would you classify the genre of the game?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All of these are questions we think are best left to player interpretation!

[–]whatnameisnttaken098 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'm not necessarily sure it this counts as cut or scrapped, but did you think of any routes that seemed too extreme or out there when compared with the others?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I don't think this is necessarily a "route", as it's more of a design change for an existing route, but I had been leaning into much heavier dragon influences for the Eye of the Needle chapter. I still love how she looks, and it's probably good that she's not more dragon-esque and remained pretty human, just huge. But I would have loved to keep making iterations of the Adversary until she could at least breathe fire. Wouldn't make for anything super satisfying narrative-wise, hence the fact that we didn't explore more with her, but visually she would be so cool...

[–]mrpersonjr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would definitely love to see one day some of these Adversary concepts!

[–]Forscher22 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why did The Stranger receive such a big change when compared to the demo?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've answered this more in detail in another post if you'd like to look through the history on this thread, but the gist of it is: I could not write an interesting/fun chapter with her old design. Your lack of a relationship with her prior to that point made the scenario far too complicated execute on, and I feel like the final version of the route that made it into the full game was a tighter encapsulation of what we wanted the Stranger to be about. (Especially some of her harder to find content.)

[–]Ox0K3n 0 points1 point  (1 child)

which Movie/Anime/TV series inspired you or would you reccomend for the game?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

For anime stuff:

Evangelion, Madoka, and Your Name feel like the three biggest influences?

[–]ultra132 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I got 2 questions, one for me and one for a friend who I introduced to the game.

1) What we're your motivations and inspirations behind slay the princess?

2) What was your overall thought process behind creating each of the pathways and the choices?

[–]hohmeisw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are there any plans for polyamorous relationships in scarlet hollow?

What led to the initial idea for SH and slay the princess? Was there a particular horror story/ movie/other?

What has been your favorite part of making the games?

[–]david__14 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What happens to voice of the hero in the freedom ending?

[–]just-a-turtleduck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi! Feel free to ignore any of these questions!

What's the mirror please can I have a hint it's agonizing I can't make it make any sense. Also when we break the glass cage at the end is that the construct or the world itself

Why does the world just end sometimes? I understand whenever you get the princess out of the cabin, but sometimes you're both just vibing and she's just like "damn it's cold where'd the narrator go?"

The Shifting Mound says she restarts the time loop because the Princess is a creature of perception who can make you forget. How does she do that without a vessel, for the stages of grief route?

Are there actually people in the outside world? Are there actually parallel universes you're jumping to? Or is the construct just resetting?

[–]SgtBANZAI 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm the one who asked you on Discord yesterday for how long the AMA is going to last, glad I made it in time.

​

Before asking questions, I have to say that I applaud you for Slay the Princess, themes this game tackles and many of the instruments it uses to do so. Both my praise and questions heavily lean into the spoilers territory so I'll mark them as such below just in case. The questions come in the second part of my post.

​

I didn't expect much from StP originally but was very pleasantly surprised both by its writing quality, imaginative situation-building and large possibilities for justified interpretations that go beyond the usual trite of unfounded fan theories. I also want to commend the fact that you managed to give the player enough facts to make informed decisions while also cleverly maneuvering between complex definitions and freely admitting through the characters' points of view that some thing can't be made sense of due to how incomprehensible the totality of the Universe is. A lot of writers pondering metaphysical concepts either get lost in the complexity of topics at hand and get even the most basic facts wrong, completely botch the execution (I've read books about consciousness admitting we still have no idea what consciousness is, so the entirety of the novel I've just read is meaningless unfounded speculation) or betray theming and readers' expectations completely by, for example, loudly pretending it was all a dream or an allegory and they never intended to make any sense of it.

​

I was very impressed when I realized that the game actually does have a functioning world and characters possessing ability of choosing their fates instead of pure thought experiment with no clear ground to stand on, and that you have managed to avoid many pitfalls all too common for similar works of fiction by giving the player just enough agency without overexplaining things. I also compliment the idea of offering the player the choice of whether existing, living, dying or anything in between, makes it much more nuanced than 99% of the games' developers making clear cut between good and evil based on their personal beliefs.

​

My playthrough route consisted of Prisoner, Damsel, Razor, Tower and Thorn, with the game ending in The Protagonist and The Princess leaving the cabin together, and I personally consider this sequence to be almost perfect to the point I'm of impression it's probably the best route in the entire game. The dynamic of both main characters constantly hurting each other, (accidentally) making the other one submit to their will in one way or another and finally letting go of their past and accepting each other in the form of mutual understanding was very well done.

​

The final decision on making both entities leave their past grievances aside for good was very well thematic conclusion, because it showed clear progression of both of their points of view coming to their final liberation: none of the Princesses were able truly become free until Thorn (only the Prisoner's head made in to the surface; Damsel was deconstructed into nothingness by confused Protagonist; Razor fought the Protagonist in arms race to standstill; Tower tried to overpower the Protagonist and disappeared during his final leap of faith), who did persuade herself to finally trust the Protagonist by offering him a knife after they killed each other in first iteration and then he allowed her to slay him in second interation. This penultimate episode before the final standoff felt like a catalyst for the "true" self of the Princess to make a sincere decision and agree to the Protagonist's proposal of separating their former concepts from their entity selves and heading on, either into the real world free of suffering or the one they decide to make up for themselves. I hesitate to start another playthough because I seriously doubt any other route can come close.

​

Now to the questions.

  1. Have you read Mainlander or other pessimistic philosophers like him? I can't say the game tackles some of the fundamental existential questions in quite the same way, but a lot of underlying themes seem to be at least partially inspired by some of the conclusions and ideas of his. Mainlander puts a lot of weight into the concept that there is no singular, universal will, and argues that each of the perspectives observed by different humans are inherently limited by their capabilites to observe - much like different iterations of The Princess and The Protagonist are limited not only in their character, but by their capability of interacting with the universe and their inner "self". He also states that by simply observing the universe a person inevitably brings their own biases into the picture, just like The Protagonist's actions change both the voices he can hear and what vessels he faces during his journey. Mainlander proposes the idea of God shattering itself into multiple independent personal wills - like both The Princess and The Protagonist do. A lot of his work touches on the idea that nonexistence is the preferrable alternative to existence, and will to live is a duality that inevitably leads to the will to die - much like the entire point of conflict between The Protagonist, The Princess and The Narrator.
  2. I know you said you're not going to talk about the game's story much, but if I give my interpretation, can you tell if it's a valid possibility or is there something that directly contradicts it in the game's theming?
  3. I wonder about the context of the idea of not wanting to outright saying definitve statements about the game. Is it because you don't want to let your own biases to influence the individual players' understanding of "canon"? Did you make this decision because you believe that personal ethics can lead a person to quite different conclusions on what each ending means and what is actually good? Was it both or something else entirely?
  4. Do you have any plans on making additional content for the game, offering different perspective or perhaps making a sequel, or do you think you've said everything you wanted?
  5. What was the most interesting or favourite part of the game for the both of you? What is your take on what is the most important theme?

[–]Njumkiyy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What does the development plan of Scarlet Hallow look like? I know as a smaller developer setting unrealistic timelines is a bad thing, but when do you hope to release episodes 5, 6, or even 7?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Episode 5 is going to be some time next year, and Episodes 6 and 7 are going to release as a pair when they're ready. Slay the Princess has given us a nice amount of breathing room as a studio, so we're going to try and avoid crunch moving forward and not announce a release date until the full next episode has entered testing. We're not going to make any other games until Scarlet Hollow is finished, though!

[–]Adrot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey there! As a Hotel Dusk / Last Window fan, I saw that your art style regarding the princess was quite similar in some aspects, such as the shading and hatching. Were the games an inspiration to the team, by any chance?

[–]python-b5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Glad to see you're doing this AMA. I finished Slay the Princess yesterday and enjoyed it a lot. I'm not usually one for horror games but this one just drew me in. I've only just started Scarlet Hollow but hope it will be just as good.

A couple questions:

  1. I haven't yet gotten all the achievements in STP. Would you have any recommendations for the best way to go about getting them? I got all the endings I could find at the end of my first playthrough, but the way I did it (constantly reloading and picking different options) felt unsatisfying to me.

  2. How do you approach writing a story like the ones found in your games? Do you draw out dialogue trees / story maps or something? It must be unimaginably complicated.

Thanks again for the AMA.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My only issue with Ren'py is that it's a pain to port to consoles. That said, console sales for indies tend to be pretty weak compared to Steam, so it's not like you need to port a commercial game.

[–]Canadian_Targaryen 0 points1 point  (1 child)

During the weekend delay you guys announced you were taking the opportunity to add in some cut content you didn’t have time to include before the launch. Can you tell us what stuff was added back in?

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The delay gave me the chance to finish up the images that appear during the finale of the game, when the Shifting Mound is sharing her perspectives! It added a lot of dynamism and context to the scene that was previously lacking, so it turns out those few extra days were a blessing in disguise. We were so devastated that we had to delay, but that definitely made up for it.

[–]mugasha 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What did your writing process look like? How do you come up with/edit the lines to sound so natural? Love the writing in Slay the Princess and Scarlet Hollow!

[–]redbird7311 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. As someone that has played the demo, I can’t help but notice that the Stranger has seemingly been completely redesigned. Were you guys originally going to take her in a different direction? If so, what was it.

  2. The game has gotten a very surprising amount of attention and support considering it is a horror VN game made by a small indie team. I know you guys don’t have any current plans for things like DLCs/expansions packs. However, would you guys be willing to return to the game, world, and/or characters again or do you not see yourselves doing that?

  3. Is there any notable plans you guys had, but couldn’t fit it/scraped that you would be willing to share?

[–]BreadwithMustardonit 0 points1 point  (1 child)

For the future, are there any other routes planned to expand the "vessel" collection? I'd love to see some more versions of the princess, since I remember there even being one in the demo which didn't appear in the final game (the old version of "the stranger')

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like my answer softens a little every time someone asks us about expanding the game. We don't have anything planned right now, but if we have an idea we feel is worth exploring, we'll explore it.

Right now nothing comes to mind, but I've also been working on Slay the Princess non-stop since February and Abby's been working on it non-stop since May, so how we feel today isn't necessarily indicative of how we'll feel tomorrow or how we'll feel a month from now.

Will say that we're both touched that so many people want more!

[–]That_One_Weirdo1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay so I have a couple questions, all about Slay the Princess.

  1. What were your favorite princesses to create?
  2. While the in-game design is vague, were there any other potential designs for the protaganist and why did you make him bird-like?
  3. And are there any plans for STP merch in the future?

Absolutely adore the game, it's seriously a new favorite for me! Fantastic work!

[–]DrScorcher 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I bought Slay the Princess 3 days ago and have almost 100% the game, What is the context behind this scrapped voiceline?

[–]Plastic-Fun-5030 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really enjoying the game. Congratulations on the reception! What was your writing process like for a game like this? Did you outline it with big story beats or write linearly? Did you storyboard or script it? Any insight would be interesting. Thanks!

[–]RUBecSO 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would you consider the non-video game influences on STP (e.g. books, films, etc)?

[–]mrpersonjr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats on launching the full game!

I would like to ask if you guys have any more plans with the world of StP? I don’t mean like sequels and updates, which I saw was already addressed, but more-so maybe little ways to explore the characters and such?

[–]GrumpyMcFrumpy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No questions from me, but I just want to say thanks for making this game! One of the most enjoyable and replayable experiences I’ve had the pleasure of playing in a long time.

[–]DoodleDinosaur 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Firstly, congratulations on the game. I've played a lot of visual novels in my time and I thought everything about this from story to art, voices to soundtrack was just incredible and you deserve all the success.

Relating to that, at what point during development did you think "We're onto something really good here" or has it still not hit home quite yet?

[–]Man_With_A_TopHat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Was there any princess that was particularly difficult to write?

[–]Virtual-Oil-793 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would it be possible that your first pick (Say, The Tower) being the form that The Shifting Mound takes in the best ending?

​

Also, thoughts of a "Narrator-less version" of some routes with another voice (Tower/Apotheosis gets Smitten, Specter/Wrath getting Contrarian, Witch/Thorn getting Specter) via completing a Stranger Path

  • "A Voice is lusting..."
  • "A Voice has sharpened it's Blade"
  • "That...that voice Why does it sound familiar!?"

[–]Dry_Appearance455 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So can i ask is there going to be any diary entries for lore or will there be any things that counteract my question like the loop or alternate loops

[–]Stillstuckin2022 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sorry to ask another question with how many comments there but what would've been the costumes of the scarlet hollow love interests + tabby (if she was even allowed to trick or treat) on holloween when they were younger

[–]abby722Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's a great question!

β€’Tabitha: Not allowed to have fun. The closest she could come is dressing as John D Rockefeller, but only for a school event. But if that hadn't been the case and she could put her all into a costume, she would have done something clever but creepy, like a severed head on a table where she pokes her head through a big cardboard box with a tablecoth on it.

β€’Stella: A veterinarian to match her mom! With big gloves covered in (fake) cow refuse and everything.

β€’Kaneeka: Home-made Chibi Usa from Sailor Moon, they didn't have it at the local Spirit Halloween so she had to do her best. No one knew who she was supposed to be.

β€’Reese: Vampire.

β€’Avery: Probably did one of those "hippie" jean jacket/tie dye shirt/big round glasses/bellbottoms outfits.

β€’Oscar: My gut instinct is that Oscar didn't do much trick-or-treating as a kid, just seems like the kind of thing his parents would frown upon.

[–]samdoes_reddit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What was the writing process like? How much writing did you end up doing? How much did you leave out? What’s the biggest challenge in writing a project like this?

[–]Founddown 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey! I absolutely love your game! I love all the designs in the game and the fact that the player is also a monster is really cool to me. My question is why did you settle on the idea of a kind-of monstrous looking protagonist?

[–]Leading_Meat_7282 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If I cave and buy Scarlet Hollow will you make more games like Slay the Princess?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Scarlet Hollow and Slay the Princess probably have more in common than you'd think, but the first episode is free if you want to try it out first (or you could pirate the game and see if you like it before buying.)

Future games are probably going to be closer to Slay the Princess β€” I don't think we'll be trying another million word long visual novel. But that also depends on what you mean by "like Slay the Princess."

All of our games are probably going to have romance as a central theme, all of them are going to have a mix of horror and comedy elements, and all of them are going to do what we can to make every player choice feel like it matters.

[–]Silver_Sonic_23 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If you were to date one of the princesses or voices, who would you pick and why?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Adversary I have a type unfortunately.

[–]TheDeathAngel2112 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok so as i'm typing this I genuinely don't know what to even ask. Agh. Gimme a sec.

Here goes; Was there anything you chose not to do because it might've been too angsty/dark? And/or, was there anything you chose not to do because it might've been too fluffy/light hearted?

​

...Also my favorite Princess I think is between Adversary and Full Razor.

[–]clairejv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What are some of the themes you hope players reflect on during and after play?

[–]CapitalismBeLike 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would the Prisoner's favorite video game be? (For some reason I envision her playing Factorio for several days straight)

[–]Blvk_Knxght 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"What role does the narrator serve in the story? Is the narrator primarily a guide through the narrative, considering that he neither objects to the player's choices to kill the princess nor to save her in the end?"

[–]Brian4726 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Will Slay the Princess be ported to Switch?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We're hoping to do console ports next year!

[–]theamazingpheonix 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know this is mostly about slay the princess, but: If Dr. Kelly had more time, what kind of hobbies would she have?

[–]CountingInfinity 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Can you go into further detail about how the traits of Scarlet Hollow have developed since you guys started releasing episodes? You've talked about how Mystical has developed over time to be like Shivers from Disco Elysium, I'm interested if any other traits have shifted in perspective like that one has.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

None of the others had overhauls on the level of Mystical, but Powerful Build definitely felt way too weak for the longest time. I think it could still do with some buffs to its gamefeel.

[–]AsAnAIThrowawayAcct 0 points1 point  (1 child)

First of all, I played and loved Slay The Princess, and wanted to thank you profusely for your vision and hard work.

Secondly, I want to preface my question by saying: I am a staunch advocate for labor rights, I wish we had universal basic income, I hate that "AI" companies are profiting off of the labor of artists and writers without compensating them, the thought of them displacing human labor makes me sick, and I wish we would all hurry up and unionize. HAVING SAID ALL THAT...

Generative machine learning models, and especially large language models, seem to be here to stay. I feel like language models are potentially more defensible than image or voice models, because I believe there's actually a path to making capable language models that does not rely on exploiting copyrighted works without permission.

I do not think they're a path to AGI, I do not think anyone should rely on them for anything important, and I do not think they will ever be a substitute for human writers and authorial intent.

But I do think it can be surprisingly fun to role play with them if you haven't tried it, and it is fascinating to me the degree to which, through training/tuning/prompting, you can influence their writing style and "personality." It's something I've been experimenting with a lot as a hobby, and the possibility space strikes me as absolutely fascinating.

As they get "smarter" (more steerable), it seems like there might be room for a narrow sub-discipline of writing that's essentially giving direction to an NPC AI improv actor. Right now the LLM improv actors happen to be pretty dumb, but... that's changing fast.

tl;dr: I'm just very interested in the perspective of talented folks in the narrative space if you can envision a wayβ€”or have any appetiteβ€”to thoughtfully employ such technologies, if we assume they are somehow both more capable and "ethically sourced" in the future. Sorry for the rant, and I realize this subject is a political third rail, and totally understand if y'all don't want to commit to A Stance here.

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We wouldn't ever use tech like that, even in a world where training data was ethically sourced. So much of game design for us is about having a conversation with our players, and delegating those interactions to an LLM runs counter to that design philosophy.

[–]Nahxiee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you guys ever consider writing a romance route for the Narrator? Honestly, I found him to be the best part of the game, so I was really hoping that there would be something for him like that! If you ever added a route like that to the game or made it as like a spin-off, I'd pay for it, a 100 percent.

[–]Cahnis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who is your favorite VTuber and why is it Pippa?

[–]Saltyadveritisement 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What was your favorite ending to make? Also I love this game so much already its so good :3

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really enjoyed writing the "Oblivion" ending, even if it's a real bummer. The writing in that route is closest to the writing from the first time you meet the Shifting Mound, and how she was in that scene was one of my favorite things to write in the entire game.

[–]Antzmaybecool 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Great game I really enjoyed it. Have any of you played any fighting games? Some of these lines hit really deep and I feel like they could be win quotes 😭

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I played SF IV for a while when it first dropped. Glad you had a good time!

[–]Stillstuckin2022 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Okay sorry one last question but it's been nagging at my head but while I was playing slay the princess with a couple friends, I had a friend with DID playing and they noticed how similar the voices are to what it's like having alters, espically with how you get new ones after a truamatic experience (aka death in game). Did it occur to yall when writting that the voices were similar to alters and DID, or was it completely unintentional?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Unintentional, but I'm glad to hear your friend enjoyed the writing!

[–]Boudynasr 0 points1 point  (2 children)

read through lots of QnA, thanks alot for hosting this. I sincerely hope you all have a very successful launch.

I have one last question, did you always intend for some princesses to not be ... slayable?

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I am a fanatic who loves pressing the [Slay the Princess] so would have appreciated for more and more princesses to slay, Apotheosis, Gray, Fury and Wraith: I totally understand why it might have been hard to commit to writing a scene where they are slain [the scope, narrative, reasoning, etc.] but my biggest frustration came from The Den, her just whisking away before finally slaying her felt very anti climatic, specially because the other route [Networked Wild] allowed the option of also slaying a helpless princess which I totally didn't expect, thought she would disappear before getting to slay her

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I know it feels like nitpicking but I was very hyped about the den, the ultimate predator vs prey fight and only one comes out alive, you outsmart her and shes trapped, the final conclusion of this epic chapter is to either slay or spare the beast and not getting to see a bloody conclusion to The Den princess was a bit of let down to me

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yes I am the guy who loves playing evil playthroughs, doing chaotic evil stuff and appreciates bloody and horror writing + art lmao and this game ... SLAYED!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Most of those chapter 3 climaxes where you land a lethal blow came from a miscommunication over the script. In my draft, it was the case that none of those final blows ever land, and that, essentially, once you reach the climax of one of those stories, the hands interrupt and take her away. The idea was to make it feel like you were being robbed of your ending both for thematic reasons and to build a possible avenue of tension between the player and the shifting mound.

When Abby was putting together her art, this wasn't her read on the script, so there were a few instances (Eye of the Needle, Razor, Wounded Wild immediately come to mind) where she made art under the assumption that the blow did land. Between a combination of time constraints and the art being Really Good, we just edited the script a little to adjust for it.

Maybe something to revisit in the future!

[–]Boudynasr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh thanks for clarifying, it makes total sense now. This little happy accident was one of my favoritesl

And you also acknowledged the final outcome in the finale so it was just perfection!

[–]Lengthiness-Upset 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My friend and I have been debating about what exactly happened to the Narrator. My friend believes that he is just an ordinary person who, as he gets older, becomes fearful of death as he sees people around him pass away before him. On the other hand, I believe that some kind of disaster has occurred in the real world, and humanity is on the brink of extinction. So what exactly happened to trigger such a strong obsession in the Narrator?

[–]bingbongzingzongz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shoot I missed it but will ask anyways

This is so random but I loved the chapter names, how did you come up with them lol

For example Tower, The Den, Grey, Wild, Moment of Clarity

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What made you choose these names?

[–]Frite_Chitkin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is there a symbolism behind making the hero and the narrator bird like entities? If so, what?

[–]Emotional-Soup-1956 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Hello! I just want to know if the 5th chapter (or day) of Scarlet Hollow will come out this year! Thanks for your great work πŸ‘»

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’ll be some time in 2024!

[–]UniversePancake52 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Heyo!! This is a very tiny question, but if Princess were to have colors, what would they be? It’s alright if you guys don’t know or if her not having color is kind of the point due to her shifting nature

[–]Staubaugen 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Since you guys are still replying (thanks btw)

Most of what should be said was said in this topic, Im still gonna mention a big respect for this extremely interesting, engaging and emotional game. Now:

- After three playthroughs, and thinking about what every line in the game, especially by Shifting Mound meant, I made the assumption that a lot of her metaphysical, metaphorical and meaningful dialogues are pretentious and dont really say too much. Like, there are just SO many views, perspectives and philosophical standpoints from her in every single dialogue seemingly unlinked to each other its hard to imagine they all tie together in a bigger theme/meaning for the game. So I could imagine they're just there because they sound good and deep if I wouldn't know better. How would you view such an assumption?

- My biggest and only real criticism about StP is the complete lack of a gallery/an extras-function on the title. The fact that there is absolutely no place for me to see which artworks, backgrounds, houses I have seen so far, which princesses I have unlocked so far, which endings I have completed so far is pretty frustrating and I dont really see the benefit of having no gallery. Even if you take out the obvious treat of having the option to look at all the berautiful art and your achievements again, it would be a HUGE help in looking for new content and completing the game, something that's especially hard if you consider how complex this awesome game of you is. Was it a concious decision to have no gallery, and why did you decide to leave it out if so? Is there any chance there will be one in the future?

- Any chance you will ever release some kind of guide/flipchart/help with completion? I cant imagine so, but it surely would be appreciated by many players who want to see as much of your game as possible.

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Again, you did something marvelous with this game, thank you in advance for your time!

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Hey, thanks so much!

Folks are going to make of some of the characters what they're going to make of some of the characters. I'll say that the mound is written how she is for a reason, and it's up to players to figure out how they want to feel about her, including whether or not they want to dismiss her outright.

We'll be adding a gallery in the future, but not sure when that'll. As horror devs, we have to move so many different things around to try and get releases ready for October, and the overall content and polish of the game itself took precedence over side features like a gallery. When we do add it, the gallery will be a free update.

[–]SgtBANZAI 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apologies for hijacking this comment chain, but can you please look at my questions regarding the philosophical theming of the game earlier in the topic if you have time?

[–]Shinaesthetic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I LOVED the game so much! It was such a wonderful treat and I spend all night trying to get all the achievements, bravo team! Every single part, from art to writing to sound design and music was magnificent. I checked the AMA to hopefully not repeat questions:

  1. Art - Ammy mentioned that she started organising her PSDs differently. Most of the background seemed to be layered to add the ability to give that sense of motions. What was the system that worked out the most for you?
  2. Writing - You mentioned that you wrote the script directly in renpy. Was it a hassle to juggle around different pathways, since chapters could be swapped with one another? Did you separate each path into it's own rpy file or write it a bit differently?
  3. Voice acting - how did this part work? Did you send the VAs some notes on each character/alteration or were they long sessions of discussion? :0 did programming them in give any challenge? As multiple scenes have multiple alterations based on our decisions, the same scene has different voices emerging and I wonder if the logistics were hard to pull out
  4. Music - what was the process of making the soundtrack for the game? Did you guys have a main motive?

[–]CaptainMarcia 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Hi! I'm quite late to the party, but I love Slay the Princess and had a great time reading your additional insights on it here.

I've noticed that there's a few lines where the text and audio don't quite match up. I was wondering, are there any plans to release a patch for those?

[–]mrogre43Co-Founder | Black Tabby Games[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Report them on the Steam forums or Discord, please! Can't fix 'em if we don't know what they are ^^

[–]CaptainMarcia 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will do. Thanks!

[–]svolozhanin7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it’s over but I will still try my question. It was probably asked before but I can’t find a comment down there.

β€˜Do you plan to include body pillows/dakimakura of The Hero and/or The Princess(Maybe Narrator)?

It’s only half a joke for I wouldn’t mind having a body pillow a β€˜Default’ Princesses/Shifting Mound.