Sorry for the long ask, but I need to get this out of my chest.
Do really people think Jon is a submissive poor baby??
He's the most dominant character in the whole show. He acts in the way he thinks it's right, without (mostly) asking for advice or permission. He fucks up a lot because of this (and because he doesn't take other's people feelings into consideration). Other characters with dominant personalities (like Melanie!) accuse him of being an asshole even when it's not deserved because they perceive him as an authority figure. He takes decisions=he takes responsibility.
It doesn't mean he doesn't get tricked by Jonah, or influenced in other ways, still he perceives them as his choices. He feels guilty about things he has no control on because he feels he needs to have control of any situation. Jon's biggest flaw is that he's arrogant.
Also,
the power imbalance between Jon and Martin isn't because Martin is a little bit of an asshole (??) it's because Jon is literally a supernatural creature and the only reason he didn't go mad in Season 5 it's because he loves Martin. Still, he clearly doesn't take Martin's opinion into account most of the time, he mostly sees him as someone to protect. Again, putting himself in an authority role, they are not equal in the relationship.
Martin's character arc finishes with his relationship with Jon, his character is completely fulfilled by it, while Jon is doing his shit and he needs Martin just because he chooses to.
It would be so interesting to see their relationship grow. Jon learns that he doesn't need to be always in control and he can rely on Martin. Martin learns how to love himself -through Jon's loving him- and how to build meaningful relationships with other people, knowing that he's loved even when he isn't a perfect sweet baby.
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Ooo I like what youre saying. Yea. I do think Jons somewhat submissive when he gets backlash for his actions sort of in a ‘Better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission’ kind of way if that makes sense. With scenes where hes confronted hell stand up for himself a bit before agreeing and going along with wtv ppl say. Idk if that makes sense and Im misremembering some things but yea - rosette
sorry nonny & rosette i misread that question for a second . but i agree w/rosette ! jon’s generally very anxious when it comes to backlash and he’ll do what he can to avoid it / avoid confrontation . etc etc . yeag - deceit
Like they said, I think he is very anxious. A lot of his actions aren’t really him trying to be dominant or something, and he is often “ready to conform to the authority and/or will of other” (google definition of “submissive”) he’s just incredibly bad at it.
He’ll be like “Yes, of course you’re right. I will wait for you before jumping into the coffin,” but of course, he goes into the coffin anyways, it’s not as if he’s trying to undermine the others and show his dominance, he’s just gets the overwhelming need to do something that it overpowers his quote unquote submission.
I wouldn’t really say he’s arrogant though, even in season 1, he’s stuffy and uptight, but he doesn’t really give me the vibe that he thinks he’s better or more important than anyone else. The most arrogant I can think of him being is with Melanie in her first statement, but even that was more pride for the institute as a whole rather than himself specifically.
Also, I don’t think Martin is the reason Jon didn’t go mad in season 5. I think he would have more easily lost hope without Martin and would have just settled with the horrible new world, but he wouldn’t go “mad,” he wouldn’t have become a sadistic fear eating monster without Martin, and I feel like saying he would discredits his character.
Also which of martin’s opinions should he have taken to heart? His “let’s kill all of these avatars, because they’re the worst things ever and should all die!” opinion, (not acknowledging Jon is an avatar) or his “let’s send all of the literal eldritch horrors to another dimension, because I decided the Web isn’t actually that bad, right?” opinion? Jon didn’t take Martin’s opinions into account because Martin didn’t understand the full scope of things like Jon did.
I’m honestly a bit confused by the last part, While I do think Jon’s relationship with control is a very interesting thing to explore, I don’t really think Jon is ever trying to control others, or even a situation, just that he is in control of himself, so I don’t know how relying on Martin would help.