I know Jon acknowledges this but it’s funny to me that A Guest for Mr. Spider is just genuinely the LEAST credible statement out of all 81 we’ve heard so far.
Like okay, Mr. Statement Giver, you were a very young child, and you just read a spooky children’s book, and your childhood bully stole it from you. And you’re oh-so convinced that the way your bully walked off was because the book’s monster was calling him and the house he went into belonged to the book’s monster and the monster got him the end.
No one else who can corroborate any events. No evidence whatsoever. A hearsay statement from childhood that sounds like a normal interaction played-up by the imagination of a scared kid frightened by his scary book.
The only evidence in Jon’s favor is the fact that the book was a Leitner. But that’s basically tautological. The only reason Jon was lending extra credibility to Leitner-book statements is BECAUSE of his encounter with A Guest for Mr. Spider.
The absolutel audacity of Mr. Jonathan Archivist Sims to show up with not just AN unverifiable statement, but the MOST unverifiable statement to date. Statement ends.
Jon Archivist voice, mockingly: “Statement ends… Well, while I do not doubt that Mr. Sims was sharing this story in earnest, it is nothing more than a childhood flight of fantasy.
"There are no verifiably supernatural details in this case. All Mr. Sims recounts of scary spider limbs opening the door are far more likely explained by the over-active imagination of a child who has just read a scary, scary book. And a scary book is, itself, not a supernatural matter.
"Mr. Sims cannot recall the name of the childhood bully who, supposedly, vanished in this encounter. And with no name, there is hardly a lead to follow up on. Mr. Sims’ grandmother is dead and cannot be questioned. There were no eye-witnesses to the event, nor does Mr. Sims recall the street where the vanishing supposedly happened. The book cannot be recovered, nor even verified.
”To waste archival resources on this would be beneath even Martin, I’ve decided. There is nothing to follow up on here. End recording.“
i mean, that’s sort of the point though, isn’t it? he’s projecting. and he hates himself, and his own judgement. he wants to prove that it’s not just his own vague feelings on the matter. that’s why he overcompensates with the whole "objectivity” shtick. while he was deep in paranoia, he started treating the people he wanted to trust the most with the most suspicion, because he thought that would somehow prove that he wasn’t crazy, that it was okay to trust them, if only he could find that one little bit of proof (and this is in fact what happens with martin, even though he didn’t actually prove that martin wasn’t dangerous at all. he just needed something to withstand his onslaught of suspicion.)
this is the same thing. he knows his story is impossible to prove, and so he tears apart anything that’s similar because maybe if he throws everything he can at it as viciously as he can, he’ll find that it was all real, and no one can argue with it, and he SHOULD have been believed back then. every aggressive supplemental is just a one sided argument with people who dismissed him and his trauma as a child.
(Note I'm seeing this through lens of being horribly ill and struggling with health providers rn but)
I never saw it as an addiction metaphor I saw but how disabled people are denied aid and stuff because its 'wrong' and you 'should just be able to exist without it'.
But 'it hurts me to see you using cane/meds/wheelchair'
So it made sense to me that yeah he'd feel great using it but also feel horrible guilty
I didn’t get into this in the original post because I was worried I wouldn’t be able to word it right (in part because I haven’t finished my relisten, and in part because this is More than just meta about a story I like and I didn’t want to say anything ignorant).
BUT I’m absolutely glad that you’re bringing this up.
because the truth is that my Other problem with the discussion about monsterhood in the magnus archives as addiction (in holding characters morally accountable for being monsters because they “should” be able to just Choose not to do monstrous things if they were good people) is that it Is accurate to how people treat addicts, and that’s a bad thing when people parrot it without realizing that.
because the truth is, addicts often Do need their addiction to survive. medically, emotionally, or just. You Know. because addiction often means you can’t just cut cold turkey without major consequences (consequences that, to be clear, Can Kill You). and they Are often treated poorly by the people around them for not just being able to Do Better as if anyone could be expected to do “better” in their situation.
when “"better”“ means being in pain, when ”“better”“ is unlivable without the necessary support to Make it bearable.
and this Absolutely crosses over with ableism. in real life And in the show.
you don’t Need to be an addict for someone to treat you like you’re immoral for needing aid they don’t. though I think it’d be a mistake to talk about it without Also keeping addiction in the conversation, because it’s not right when people do it to addicts either.
needing aid to survive And being an addict aren’t mutually exclusive, and that’s what I meant when I said my last post was In Conversation with the addiction metaphor.
jon’s situation being a mirror (in many ways, it’s not an exact one to one of course) with addiction doesn’t mean that he’s Less deserving of compassion or that his situation was somehow his own fault, it means that we should be taking that compassion and understanding of his situation and Apply That to the real people who are also deserving of those things.
we Watched jon be stripped of his own agency and forced into a position where he could Only be a monster or die, and in response many people have said that he should’ve just Chosen not to be, as if the choice is Reasonable. as if asking him to starve or die is Reasonable.
and of course, I’m not qualified to speak about addiction in detail, but it’s just something that’s sat wrong with me for years. the Show’s use of addiction as a metaphor works for me because of the empathy and humanity it’s Meant to show to addiction. but the fandom’s reception to that messaging isn’t. always stellar.
and I don’t think people necessarily do it on purpose, but I Do wish there was more of an awareness of it. how it might come across, you know?
the problem with the addiction metaphor for avatars in the magnus archives isn’t actually with the metaphor itself, it’s that it’s treated as the Only way to understand monsterhood.
“jon made the choice to go after live statements because they felt good” is true
“jon felt good when he took live statements as a metaphor for addiction” is true
“jon felt good when he took live statements because victimizing people feels empowering” is true
“jon felt good when he took live statements Because Eating Feels Good” Is Also True
it’s easy to say that jon made The Choice to continue being a monster, there’s plenty of characters in the show who’ve said as much.
but the choice to continue being a monster is Equally the choice to Survive, to continue living. and trying to have a conversation about the Morality of jon’s choice, as if it is Only about how good it feels to be monstrous, as if the addiction to living can be separated from the reality of dying. is a bit ridiculous !
the whole point of jon’s situation, of Being an avatar, is that it’s not Fair. jon was turned into a monster without his knowledge or consent, and then was told that there was no way out of it but to die.
it’s not Fair to blame someone for wanting to live, it’s not Fair to hurt someone to continue living. both are true, and that’s Exactly what makes it interesting ! Why avatars can be both victims and victimizers in turn.
what makes someone like jon different from someone like jared hopsworth isn’t their capacity for violence or to cause pain, it’s the Choice To Continue Feeling Compassion For Other People. to make the active Choice to see other human beings As People and care about the harm you cause them.
so much of the narrative of tma is about characters who are stripped of agency, who still make Meaningful Choices Anyways. by Choosing to care, even as that choice hurts you. to continue to care even though it would feel Good not to.
this isn’t Separate from the metaphor about addiction, it’s in Conversation with it.
Thinking about the lack of agency Jon has even in the meta. Thinking about how Jon isn’t even referred to as Jon in the transcripts. Thinking about how people want to boil Jon down to an addiction metaphor and power dynamics. Thinking about how it’s revealed Jon’s entire life was controlled by the Web and people still act like he could’ve prevented anything. Thinking about how the fandom can’t stand to think of Jon as being a victim using whatever tools he has to stop being victimized. Thinking about how Jon wouldn’t be able to know peace in sleep as much as his victims didn’t no matter what he fucking got out of it. Thinking about how Jon intimately felt every moment of terror every statement giver did that then expanded to the entire world and he STILL wanted to end it no matter how ‘right’ it felt. Thinking about how Jon was consistently torn down and we never actually knew the real him. Not until the very end. Thinking about Jonathan Sims and how nothing he did was ever good enough.
We don’t talk enough about how Jon legitimately thought everyone he knew that was still alive or that he ostensibly cared about wished he had stayed dead after the Unknowing. And by enough I mean we stop every so often to sleep and that’s TOO MUCH.
Georgie told him she didn’t think him waking up was a second chance. Basira didn’t answer him at all when he flat out asked if she was disappointed he woke up. Melanie tried to kill him again. And when he tried to get through to Martin by pointing out that he was alive, Martin replied in a way that was worded as though Martin would make sure he stayed dead the next time.
I’m sorry, but if that were me, and I had accepted becoming even more of a monster in order to save those very people and the world itself, I’d probably also do some terrible things just to feel like maybe it was worth it :|
Like, namely, non consensual surgery or throwing myself into the Buried or feeding on trauma so I don’t die again, no matter how everyone else wants me to.
Thinking about how Jon was shamed for not wanting to die. Thinking about how when he told Daisy he’d rather be trapped in the bury instead of dead all she said was “that’s messed up” and he just laughed. Thinking about how Jon trying everything to not fucking die was used to parallel him to Jonah fucking Magnus as a character defect instead of just him being barely 30 and NOT WANTING TO DIE. Thinking about Jon and how in the end he was denied that final rest when he decided he wanted it.
JON: *has something done to him that he’s done to others* Well clearly I have no right to be upset, and what I did was obviously worse, so I’ll just forgive and forget.
EVERYONE ELSE: *sees Jon do something they’ve done to others* WHAT THE FUCK, JON. YOU’RE A MONSTER. HOW DARE YOU. KILL YOURSELF.
*clangs pots and pans together* TELL ME HOW DOING WHAT THE WEB WANTED THEM TO DO JUST BECAUSE IT SAID IT WOULD RESULT IN ALL THE ENTITIES LEAVING WAS MORALLY JUSTIFIABLE AFTER MULTIPLE SEASONS OF THEM SPOUTING OFF ABOUT HOW DOING WHAT THE EYE WANTED THEM TO DO IN ORDER TO STOP THE RITUALS WAS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE AND EQUITABLE TO BEING A MONSTER???
How characters like Basira and Melanie and Tim get to be awful in a human way. A way that gets to be considered complex and understandable and justified due to their situations and past. A way that validates their autonomy even in the bad things they do.
While everything Jon does is a sign of him being a selfish and uncaring monster who all but begged Jonah FUCKING Magnus to turn him into a WMD, a puppet, who uses his history as an excuse to minimize and shift blame for his actions and failures.
i think more people need to accept that jon and martin’s relationship is only possible as a result of their very specific trauma, and in any sort of fix it or au in which canon goes differently, they would never realistically be together.
i think jonny is amazing at short horror stories but struggles when it comes to ending character arcs in a narratively satisfying way that makes sense for them. i think this explains why tmagp is so underwhelming- the statements were the best part of tma, and what made it so good, but in tmagp they’re just a short break from the office drama, and they aren’t even written by jonny.
Ever since my first listen to TMA, I’ve had a huge question that NEVER got answered.
Never. Not in the whole series, not Q&As or the wiki or anything. I thought I would never find answers. I thought it would be forgotten. I thought it was a small insignificant detail and I’d have to live with never knowing the truth about it.
Now with TMAGP 19, I might finally know the answer.
Maybe. Maybe maybe. But It Could Be. And now I’m losing my mind at the implications.
((For the record, I know that the stories and worldbuilding are inherently separate - hell, there are even timeline differences in the cases I’m using as evidence. But the overlap might be important, especially when it comes to the Web.))
i wonder if the fandom would make as many jokes about jon’s kidnapping and torture by the circus if he was a woman. idk the whole “imprisoned for a month while his skin was prepared for removal” thing felt like a really traumatic violation and i don’t get why the lotion jokes are supposed to be funny. that’s the worst thing that ever happened to him.
My community was approved! I….. don’t know how to let people join it though??? I linked it here at the top, so potentially y'all should be able to go to it and join? idk. i don’t actually know how these work yet, aside from as like… mini dashboards? anyway, when it’s more developed, i might do more with it. idk
EDIT: Apparently it’s invite only? DM me ya want added :)
My community was approved! I….. don’t know how to let people join it though??? I linked it here at the top, so potentially y'all should be able to go to it and join? idk. i don’t actually know how these work yet, aside from as like… mini dashboards? anyway, when it’s more developed, i might do more with it. idk
EDIT: Apparently it’s invite only? DM me ya want added :)
I’m gonna have to sit down tomorrow and finally write that post I’ve been wanting to about why I wish there were more fics set Somewhere!Else or just post series where Jon and Martin break up and stay broken up versus why I get annoyed any time there’s a post series Moon Knight fic where Marc and Layla go through with the divorce. For no real reason. Cause they’re not really equitable relationships. I just want to point out the difference in how one couple could actually work through their issues while the other absolutely cannot.
The thing about JMart isn’t that I think it’s toxic or poorly written or came out of nowhere or any of that. Cause I don’t. At all. When I take a break from drinking haterade, I do agree with a good few points people make regarding their relationship in season five. I don’t want to, but I can give Martin little a grace. As a treat. When people aren’t acting like he’s morally in the right for every action he takes.
Because, though I think there is some veracity to not attributing malice in Martin’s actions, the actions he does take DO show disregard for Jon’s… everything. Because, though I do agree that they both take steps to purposefully not fall into the same habits, Martin adamantly refuses to believe Jon is trying. At all. And why do I think that? Why do I, in my heart of hearts, think there’s no way for either of them to get any better when it comes to moving forward in their relationship?
Martin flat out tells Jon that he believes, in a world without the horrors they face, that they wouldn’t even be able to stand each other. That Jon’s best-case-scenario, the scenario that he’s tied up all his hope into, the very idea that they could’ve been doing normal things as normal humans instead of whatever they became, was so far-fetched as to be something Martin had to bring him down from.
“No, Jon, we’re both too unlovable on a fundamental level and wouldn’t even find each other worth speaking to in any other world.”
That’s, essentially, what I hear when I think of that scene in the penultimate episode. Actually, I don’t think Martin includes himself as being unable to be loved, cue the “I am Martin Blackwood” scene, but as I said I’m giving him grace in thinking he’s not, as usual, putting all their problems on Jon.
This isn’t even bringing in the ‘trauma-bonding’ mention, but that’s also a sticking point for me when thinking about whether or not the two of them SHOULD even attempt to salvage a relationship with each other post-series, whether somewhere!else or not.
All the trauma they went through needed to MEAN something, to Martin, so he placed their relationship in that role. So the question begs, when adding in that quote above, what would’ve kept them together after Martin’s 'kill Jonah, pull the lever, save the world, kiss the Archivist’ dream scenario? The one he legitimately thought he was going to accomplish mere hours later? Without either of them needing to rely on the other in a world gone mad, without either of them needing each other to be sources of comradery when everyone else in the world can be, then why would Martin even stick around?
Nothing, according to Martin.
Course you could say that both of their insecurities would mean neither of them would see themselves as worthy of being with anyone else but each other. But that’s not sustainable a foundation to build anything on. Especially if, god forbid, they go to therapy and develop any form of self-worth not tied to each other or their places in the apocalypse. Eventually something will give and I don’t think many of the 'relationship growing pains’ they went through will be that easily forgotten. Or forgiven.
Here’s the point where I would point out how all the issues they had actually are mostly issues MARTIN caused by not listening to Jon when he said anything about anything at all, but as I said. Grace. So I won’t. Just know, though, that the 'hurdles’ they went through are uneven, in my eyes, at least, and I won’t say no more.
I suppose, when it comes down to it, what I’m trying to say is… telling someone you love them. Means nothing. When you think that loving them. Can only be the result of total and complete psychological, spiritual, emotional, ethical, physical, and mental destruction of the very fabric of your being.
ALT
