The character I hate most in tma is Donna Gwynne, I wish that grave robbing wannabe British museum thieving fraud from mag 64 had died in her episode. Like other characters do objectively worse things but as someone who intends to be an archeologist her actions feel personally offensive.
No but for real why didn’t Martin feed? He was fully an avatar in season four. Like he flat out just went ghost in front of Georgie and we’re not supposed to question that he could do the same sorta shit as Peter FUCKING Lukas without victimizing anyone? Or did they just decide that it only took Jon taking one live statement to make him haunt people’s nightmares because he was just that evil of a person? Like. Where is the logic.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. Jon the type of guy to lie that he doesn’t have a tattoo even as you are literally staring at it. Type of guy to say it’s a trick of the light. Or a skin condition. You will pry details about his life from his cold, dead hands.
Laughing at Jon saying Helen tricked them into thinking she was their friend. Like she wasn’t exactly convincing nor trying to be nor did you at any point treat her like you trusted her.
Like. Draw attention to the date. That’s in the middle of the final hiatus of the series. That’s before any of the final endgame stuff was brought up. So it wasn’t like the reference to that proverbial door was about them sending them to different dimensions! I just knew that, no matter what the outcome of whatever was going to happen, that in any ‘good end’ — see the doc title — there would be no way the fears would be GONE.
If I knew that even then, it’s no fucking wonder I found the bullshit moral quandary… ahFUHking bullshit.
They were dumb for taking the Web at face value and Jon should’ve killed all life. Full stop. No exceptions.
A funny thing about the widespread “Jon is stupid and keeps making dumb choices that lead to him almost dying” take is that if you were to really look at his behaviour, he very much acts in the way the “horror characters are so dumb” people would want him to act.
He doesn’t jump to irrational conclusions, doesn’t dive head first into danger and instead prepares for it as well as he can etc etc. He’s very distrustful of everyone and everything due to his paranoia, and tries to do as much research as possible before heading into the unknown.
You just get annoyed at him because you, as the listener, already know the things he’s researching, and possibly already know what his actions will result in. No, his fate couldn’t have been avoided if he had done something differently. The only way Jonathan Archivist Sims’s fate could’ve been avoided would’ve been by entirely rewriting his character story from at least the age of eight. Goodbye Mr Spider!
dramatic irony’s like an unheard of concept in the fandom i swear. like how would Jon possibly know that the whole world is out to get him because of the world’s most evilest boss 🥀 he’s trying his best guys
“And how do you think John’s going to react to that explanation? Do you think he’ll accept it calmly? Come through with a well-considered, rational response? Or would he assume he knows better than you and do something rash?”
what do you guys think, would John assume he knows best? And does Martin agree? He has to go along with Peter regardless of if he believes it, and considering he manipulates Peter, that implies to me that he may not have agreed. Very interesting to consider.
Personally I like to think John wouldn’t? He hates not knowing things more than anything, but he still respects Martin’s decision to keep him in the dark all of s4. He actively chooses to trust Martin. Yes, he hates Martin being in danger, but he agreed he had a good plan to get Elias out of the way and didn’t try to stop him there. He’s trying!
I think if it were any Jon prior to season 3 then Peter would be correct. That was how he was prior to being forced to rely on and bring in other people into the Unknowing. He was trying to connect with the others and do better by them. Even though none of them cared or reciprocated. And, personally, I think Martin did believe Peter. I don’t think Martin saw how Jon changed nor thought he was capable of it.
I’m gonna list my fanfic ideas and y’all tell me which sounds the most interesting to read okay?
Prefacing this by saying that any post!canon ones will be set in a canon!divergence au where they don’t get sent elsewhere, unless stated otherwise, and none of the post!canon facts we got from Protocol are true.
I know I say this constantly, but it bears repeating:
What all my issues regarding Martin, Melanie, Basira, and Georgie boil down to is that people act as though they are fundamentally good people who are under extreme pressure and extenuating circumstances while Jon is fundamentally a horrible monster that willingly makes all the wrong decisions and had to be tortured fourteen times over to even be considered just barely a person.
I could go on, mainly about the way y'all perceive and excuse the way they talk to and about Jon, but that’s going to require screenshots of transcripts and this was supposed to be short so…
guess who finally finished tma. anyway episode 200 is mmmm. okay I actually liked the ending a lot, and I loved Jon’s decision ‘cause. okay. “oh he’s selfish and suicidal” sure! sure, whatever but also the great horror of this post apocalyptic world has been that there is no other option than victim and perpetrator (the exceptions being Georgie and Melanie, which is not the best tone choice for me but). and that is what the final decision is! will you (and the world, but right now the world just feels like you five) suffer and die, or will you pass it on? and character wise, for Jon, whose survival to the detriment of others is literally seen as his biggest sin, chosing to not pass it on is just. it’s so good. it’s such a good ending
and then he backtracks. this pissed me off i’m sorry. oh so he really dies for nothing and still plays into the Web’s hand come ooooon can he get agency for five minutes i’m begging
WARDEN CALLUM Rumour is this one used to be a very particular human. WARDEN OLIVIA Ah you heard that too, eh? You believe it? WARDEN CALLUM I dunno. I hope not but they’re using the A word, so it’s definitely not nothing. WARDEN OLIVIA Mm. WARDEN CALLUM Feel like we’d know if he was back, though. Like it would feel different. WARDEN OLIVIA Different? Different how? WARDEN CALLUM Like the world was ending again.
It really does kill me that this is Jon’s legacy
we as the audience know him, like him, saw how he got to where he got to by the end of the show, but for the vast majority of people in his entire universe, all they know is that he is the man that ended the world
In this eassy i want to say that Jon never hated martin bc he thought he was stupid
In fact ill go as far to say he never thought martin as stupid
Air headed? And thoughtless? Yea but not stupid
Infact jon thought martin was the smartest one in the archives
Thats why he hated him so much
Jon thought martin was underminding him in every way through out season one
Martin from Jons perspective was the oldest, had the most qualifications, spent 10 years in the library, and way directly appointed by Elias
Bad first impression aside Martin was the most qualified for that position to Jon
Only for him to be bad at the job
Jon HAD to think that martin was doing it on purpose to show how bad he himself was at his job
Worst part? Martin was nice
I cannot tell you how Justified Jon would have been if Martin really was pulling what Jon thought he was being incredibly qualified purposely being bad at his job having a direct line to Elias to report how Jon is doing and then being nice on top of it yeah no Jon was right to be pissed if that was what was going on
Which is why the cv thing ment so much to jon
Bc no martin wasn’t doing all of this to make an ass out of jon
No he was just a guy struggling and in effectly the same boat jon was
So yea
In my next essay jon never claimed the supernatural didnt exist he just pretended to think the statments were horse shit
no hate & maybe I'm severely misreading-- jon is allowed to make mistakes, but when the archives girls do, it's death to them?? why would anybody be eager to literally end all life. They did what seemed like the best option they had at the time & were manipulated by the literal web. yk. like. the mother of puppets. but idk I guess its fair
None of them were eager to end all life is the point.
HOWEVER.
The others believed the Web’s mouthpiece, despite knowing fully that it was THE aspect of manipulation and LIES, and did what it fucking wanted them to anyway. Despite how they, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SERIES, dehumanized Jon for doing the Eye’s bidding in any capacity. Even prior to his becoming. Essentially proving that it would never have mattered what he did, they would always find a reason to hate him and see him as a monster.
So excuse me if I think maybe it would be cathartic to see them suffer for their failings like they were happy to see Jon suffer for his. And if that includes dying like he did then so fucking be it.
no hate & maybe I'm severely misreading-- jon is allowed to make mistakes, but when the archives girls do, it's death to them?? why would anybody be eager to literally end all life. They did what seemed like the best option they had at the time & were manipulated by the literal web. yk. like. the mother of puppets. but idk I guess its fair
None of them were eager to end all life is the point.
HOWEVER.
The others believed the Web’s mouthpiece, despite knowing fully that it was THE aspect of manipulation and LIES, and did what it fucking wanted them to anyway. Despite how they, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SERIES, dehumanized Jon for doing the Eye’s bidding in any capacity. Even prior to his becoming. Essentially proving that it would never have mattered what he did, they would always find a reason to hate him and see him as a monster.
So excuse me if I think maybe it would be cathartic to see them suffer for their failings like they were happy to see Jon suffer for his. And if that includes dying like he did then so fucking be it.
But also people cheer and hoot and holler when Jon gets his comeuppance for *checks notes* being rude and pretentious. And I LOVE doing a reverse uno.
Jonathan Sims has got to be the only character who could try to become God in order to kill everyone on Earth and still have me believing in his fundamental goodness as a person.
Tbh y’all wouldn’t like TMA if Jon had been a woman.
Y’all would call everything that happened to ‘her’ torture porn and what Jonah did to ‘her’ grooming and rape. Y’all wouldn’t find all the screaming and whimpering and nonconsensual lotioning funny.
Y’all would see a female character “”enjoy“” being all knowing and all powerful and be confused about why that was seen as a bad thing and monstrous instead of calling ‘her’ monstrous and evil yourselves.
Y’all already flatten and excuse the surviving girls so I don’t see why that would change except it’s boring to y’all to not have a male character you can point and laugh at for being dumb and in pain.
Randomly opened my copy of the third season transcripts to ‘MAG 102 - Nesting Instincts’ and I completely forgot that after the month long nonconsensual lotioning this happened.
Like. JON HAD TO COMFORT MARTIN ABOUT IT. MARTIN MADE A DIG AT HIS LACK OF BEING THERE. You can hear the way he grudgingly tries to take it back too. Ughhh. Jon can’t even begin to talk about it for fuck sake. And this is after he has to talk to Jonah, stopping Melanie from killing him, and Jonah makes gross ass comments about his ‘progress’.
Makes me ill, and not cause of no fucking beetle wife. I’ll tell you that for free.
Randomly opened my copy of the third season transcripts to ‘MAG 102 - Nesting Instincts’ and I completely forgot that after the month long nonconsensual lotioning this happened.
Like. JON HAD TO COMFORT MARTIN ABOUT IT. MARTIN MADE A DIG AT HIS LACK OF BEING THERE. You can hear the way he grudgingly tries to take it back too. Ughhh. Jon can’t even begin to talk about it for fuck sake. And this is after he has to talk to Jonah, stopping Melanie from killing him, and Jonah makes gross ass comments about his ‘progress’.
Makes me ill, and not cause of no fucking beetle wife. I’ll tell you that for free.
Like. Is it me? Am I the problem? Cause it don’t feel like Martin is concerned about anything but being seen as not caring. Like he was worried about getting in trouble at his grown ass age of fucking, what, 30?
Pro tip : fucking ask if someone is okay BEFORE YOU EXPLAIN WHY YOU DIDN’T HELP THEM.
Maybe I should read the season 5 transcripts or listen to that supercut of all the non-‘statement’ parts of season 5 (that’s eight hours long wtf) if only so I can get so upset at what is clearly an idiotic and false interpretation of these characters that I have and lose whatever this emotion I have towards Jon is.
If you think it’s somehow more morally correct to worry about individual people and their lives over a ‘nebulous’ countless others you don’t know. Then idk what to tell you. Trolley problem bullshit I guess.
At what point do you stop being able to see the individual and their specific needs when there’s billions of individuals with billions of different ways of suffering. Can you genuinely be concerned for every one of them on that individual basis without knowing every single one of them, or just the ones you see in front of your eyes. Where’s the line then?
When you don’t know the extent of the suffering, is wanting to prevent more by ending that current suffering by any means less moral than being okay with more ‘nebulous’ countless others suffering as long as THOSE individuals you’re aware of and see suffering stop suffering. Even if the way to end those individuals suffering may or may not succeed in the way you think.
Which, by all accounts, it didn’t. You were played. By your own sympathies and morals. Congrats.
No but for real why didn’t Martin feed? He was fully an avatar in season four. Like he flat out just went ghost in front of Georgie and we’re not supposed to question that he could do the same sorta shit as Peter FUCKING Lukas without victimizing anyone? Or did they just decide that it only took Jon taking one live statement to make him haunt people’s nightmares because he was just that evil of a person? Like. Where is the logic.
Stretching the interpretation FAR with my opinion : Martin did feed. He fed on Jon.
All of S4, Jon is surrounded by people who despise him - Basira, Melanie, Georgie, even Helen to an extent*. He can’t escape them, but they hardly ever interact positively with him. It’s a special kind of isolation, the “alone in a crowded room” meshed with “please talk to me”. It’s the “they all know I’m here, but they all hate me and won’t acknowledge me unless it’s to tell me off”
*Daisy an an exception here.
And Jon is terrible at recognizing his own feelings, so he thinks this is normal.
Martin. Dear Martin can feel the vortex of isolated self-loathing that is Jon. What better fear for the Lonely than a person so isolated and who believes that isolation is entirely justified?
Martin doesn’t need to poof Jon into the Fog Domain, Jon inflicts his torture himself.
Yeah I’ve heard this take before too and I don’t buy it. Martin wasn’t around to see them despise Jon and he definitely didn’t instigate it. In fact, he very much tried the opposite: asking Georgie in confusion about why she wasn’t talking to Jon when she revealed it and telling the others to talk to Jon about his victims thinking they’d care enough to help him. Wanting them to communicate to keep Jon from isolating. And the fact it did the opposite does not negate that. So there’s no way he fed off it.
I’m sorry but the moment the Magpod writers (Johnny specifically) started to get uppity about having tonal and plot inconsistencies that undermine the stated thesis of the show being pointed out and instead have them be waved away as ‘dream logic’ bullshit connected to the fears I stopped caring about what anything the podcast was trying to say and instead only care about what emotions it instilled in me.
A nuanced take on addiction and power dynamics? No that’s just victim blaming. Sorry. Show your work without the above stated contradictions. I’m waiting.
i forgot this web martin meme sjfkdlsjfiosj - harboring a crush on a dude with arachnophobia is not going well
[Start ID: Two panel comic of Jon and Martin from the Magnus Archives from an AU where Martin is an avatar of the Web. Martin is a fat mixed Polish/Korean man with short wavy dark hair that has a streak of white on one bang. He has a beauty mark under his lip. In his Web avatar state, he has eight black eyes, one set above his normal eyes, and two sets below, he also has fangs. In the part of his hair, there is a spiderweb pattern, and behind him there are some black spider legs coming from his back. He is wearing a dot patterned sweater and a teddy lined jacket. Jon is a thin Persian man with long curly hair that has streaks of grey, and has a beard. He is wearing a button up with a cardigan.
First panel, Martin is holding up his hands in defense, looking up with a fearful expression. He says, “Why won’t you love me, Jon?! I’ll be anything you want me to be!!”. In the second panel, Jon is holding up a broom with a furious expression. He shouts back, “I want you to be dead!!” End ID.]
“Jonah didn’t traumatize Jon, that’s not their dynamic.”
You’re right! He just led Jon by the nose into ‘choosing’ to be traumatized in order to make him into a harbinger of the apocalypse, stripping him of his humanity and utterly destroying his safety and autonomy.
You talk a lot about what you hate about tma and its fans, but what do you like about it? Who is your favourite character, besides manuela dominguez? (Or you might as well say what made you choose her as your fave idk)
Two things. One. What part of ‘liker’ makes you assume she’s my favorite out of every named character? Two. If you’ve read my hate posts, is it not obvious who my actual favorite is? I will not be elaborating. You can find two brain cells to rub together to figure it out.
I genuinely enjoy the statements. They are some of the most visceral writing I’ve heard. For the duration of those moments, I feel connected to and pulled into the lives of these people. The first two seasons, mainly the first, really excelled at making you feel the possibility that these things actually might’ve happened and actually could’ve been explained away in real life. This extends to how real the characters we eventually follow are. With all their flaws and hypocrisy and irrationality in consideration. You may not believe me, but despite everything I’ve said to the contrary, I DO find the character writing in this podcast one of the most dynamic of any other piece of media I’ve encountered.
Is it so unreasonable, then, that the moment the fans do what fans do and turn characters into caricatures, that my ire goes towards them AND how the narrative allowed them that belief?
I hate the show because I hate the fans coloring my perception of it. That’s all.
I think Martin fed on Jon. Whenever he demeaned Jon after he read a statement or whenever Jon agonized over being unlike the others as he was no longer human™ ... that's food for the loneliness
I have considered that possibility before, and I actually think that this kinda interpretation has a lot of potential, and would add a lot of depth and flavor to an otherwise bland relationship. What I had in mind when reblogging that post was the fact that Martin canonically being a full-fledged avatar was not utilized in the podcast at all beyond the convenient parts.
He got the “cool” part, which is disappearing when he didn’t want to talk to people. He got a domain that he refused to acknowledge but still spent an entire episode sitting in it and self-reflecting. But there was no hunger. He didn’t feel the need to feed like Jon or the other avatars did. Him being an avatar was not talked about unless it was beneficial to Martin angst and questionable jmart moments.
Throughout the length of season 5, the podcast highlighted the divide between Jon and Martin and their respective relationships with their humanity. Martin never had to face the consequences of being an avatar and thus fulfilling the role of a perpetrator in the fear-infested world. It was not explored or plot-relevant, and I think that was a wasted opportunity.
And it’s just weird to me??? The podcast spent several seasons outlining how being an avatar of a fear was very much like being a host to a life-threatening parasite. The fear feeds off of what you extract for it, and if you fail to do it, it consumes you. It’s not a superpower or a quirk. But in Martin’s case that aspect was never talked about. And yes, the potential IS there, but the podcast doesn’t cover it. You have to think it all up yourself, and when you fo you start to notice how much you have to dig for scraps and make up interpretations in order to make the ship even slightly compelling.
That’s a huge part of why I don’t like s5. The whole foundation of it is “two people in love walking through the apocalypse” but the romance is hinged purely on the assumption that you already shipped them, hence interpreting everything they did as romantic without the canon having to support it or actually develop anything.
What I’m saying is if Martin had fed as Jon did in canon, things would’ve been a lot more interesting between them. But all the Lonely made him do was fuck off to his domain and spend an entire episode talking to himself. As if one Martin wasn’t enough smh
I would be more rational-maxed and nuance-pilled if I could reasonably binge listen to the series while at work. Instead it’s mostly ads and I have also developed a mental block against season five’s existence.
Ranting about Georgie Barker, arguably the most underrated tma character
(spoilers for tma and tmagp btw)
I was thinking about tma again (shocking, I know) and about all the lore and its implications that is less talked about, because I bet if I think about it enough there’ll be plenty of it an I’m kind of inclined to make a list at this point.
But one thing in the series I keep thinking about is Georgie and particularly her statement and how it ended with her becoming immune to fear. Which is crazy btw and I really don’t think we as a fandom talk enough about how crazy that is. Because what do you mean an avatar of a fear entity (you know, the creatures that are supposed to make you scared) somehow managed to cauterize someone’s fear entirely?
That’s like the complete opposite effect of what the fears are supposed to have. And I kinda wonder if it was even intentional or if it was something that wasn’t supposed to happen and if the avatar knew this was even a possibility. Because, honestly, to me the phrase “the moment that you die will feel exactly the same as this one” seems like a line meant to evoke fear, not neutralize it.
So how the hell did that happen? And not only did Georgie have her sense of fear switched off, but this effect also made her completely immune to the entities’ powers and exempted her from having a domain during the eyepocalypse. That’s kind of an op advantage to have in this world if you ask me. And it’s kinda crazy that no one points out how weird it is that, again, this was the result of encountering and interacting with an avatar of a dread power and especially The End, probably humanity’s most ancient and primordial fear.
And now I’m thinking, can all fear entities have this probably unintended effect on people or is it just The End? And if it is just The End then why only it? What’s so special about it that can give you perminent immunity to horror? Can this happen to any human or was Georgie special somehow? Would another person have been consumed by fear in her place or was that the only possible outcome there?
My best guess is that it was an unintended outcome and that it happened both due to The End’s nihilistic nature and partially Georgie’s personality and circumstance. Like maybe a phrase that would strike fear in most, to some poeple it can bring a sense of apathy. Since what The End represents is the fear of everything inevitably ending and everything being meaningless because of this.
It’s as if Georgie, instead of being crushed under the weight of the realization of her and the whole universe’s insignificance, she accepted it as fact and let it take over the void that the fear of it would have filled in its place. I also kinda wonder if this was a decision that she herself made in that moment. If she chose, though perhaps unconsciously, to exchange her fear with nihilism.
The only other person we know of who’s become immune to the effects of the apocalypse and its domains is Melanie, who we know gouged her eyes to unbind gerself from the Eye’s shackles, which we know is a thing that can happen and it makes more sense, as she gained immunity by going out of her way to defy a dread power. And we know that this is something anyone can do. Though I’m not sure if it would work the same if someone was blinded without being held hostage by the Beholding in the first place. Otherwise blind people would basically all get special treatment during the apocalypse. And maybe they did and we just never heard about it, who knows….
But Georgie’s case feels vastly different and much weirder to me. And not only is it interesting for its lore implications, but it also makes her a very uniquely fascinating character. Because how does a person who doesn’t feel fear live, think and feel? How does that work exactly? Like imagine you one day woke up and just didn’t care about you or anyone else dying or getting hurt or literally anything ever. It just didn’t phase you. How do you even go on? How does one keep on living when they no longer fear death? If those survival instincts don’t exist anymore, why do you keep going? Especially if you happen to live in the hellscape that is the tma universe during or after the apocalypse.
And what’s even more intriguing is that Georgie isn’t just surviving or quietly living her life. We know that she’s a world leader now and that she’s in charge of whatever has been salvaged from London during the eyepocalypse. She’s actively trying to make the world better and protect people. Which poses the question, how can a person be so fiercely protective wen they don’t even fear losing people? And how does caring about and even loving someone work for a person without the fear of hurting or losing them? How do her and Melanie work as a couple? Do they ever face any struggles because of this? Does Georgie ever struggle with feelings of uncaringness or coldness towards people? SO. MANY. QUESTIONS.
And I hope we see a lot more of her in Protocol because I’ll lose my mind if her character and situation aren’t explored further. It’d really be a shame and I can only hope that Jonny and Alex are as aware of her potential as I am.
y'know the thing of "he would not fucking say that". that but with martin in a negative way. the fucking. "sorry I can't hear you, there's a door in the way" is such an iconic line. but it doesn't fit his character at all. like. who the fuck is this self assured witty guy.
I can see where you’re coming from, but I disagree. I’ll try to explain as best as I can.
One of the things Martin cared about more than anything else was being seen as caring. He tried very hard to put himself into the role of a sweet and helpful guy not only because he cared about his colleagues, but because he felt safe that way.
Making them tea was a simple gesture, so much easier than trying to offer a solution or talk about a problem they had, but it still showed that he cared and put in effort. He avoided conflict because he’s bad at resolving it. He’s the kind of guy to pretend an argument has never happened, cause it’s easier to brush it off and forget about it rather than try to get to the root of the problem. Later on, he admitted to putting on this quiet sweetheart persona while simultaneously keeping people at a distance because loneliness is easier, safer than opening yourself up to someone and showing vulnerability. He kept his interpersonal relationships surface-level because it was easier to maintain them that way.
That moment you mentioned, the action of locking himself in the archives to burn statements, and throwing a snippy response at Elias instead of folding and apologizing seems to me like positive character development - Martin finally choosing a stance in a conflict instead of trying to find a blanket solution or an easy middle ground. Finally doing something he believed mattered, and not just to keep up appearances for his own comfort. That development is very clear later, when he made the decision to collaborate with Peter Lukas because he believed he could ‘help’ his colleagues that way.
So to sum up, I don’t agree with you. I think that line is very much fitting.
Welp. Guess I’m gonna be working on what is now dubbed ‘spun sugar, ground spice, not everything is nice’. Doing more research on child development, making graphics for the playlist and a cover page and etc, creating a mood board, working on the first third and developing the other two thirds. Probably make a master post of the sketches I drew to drum up interest. Not starting from zero, but actually getting back to it…
“(This) causes autism,” this. “(This) causes autism,” that. Everyone knows what actually causes autism is relating to Jon Sims, Head Archivist of The Magnus Institute.
