2025-03-08 21:32:49 ¶ ● ⬀ ⬈

littledolphinchan:

> martinblackwoodhaterfan:

> > martinblackwoodhaterfan:

> > > Every single ship with Jon has chemistry and an interesting dynamic except for jmart. This is truly heartbreaking

> > @littledolphinchan you said so much that I decided against responding in the comments, so I’m going to reply to you here. I have also divided your response into sections to make it easier for me. And also you’re blue now ☆

> > “I mean, you listened to the podcast, right? Even if you consider their canonisation solely "a favour to the fans” you can’t deny that there was a significant buildup to that.“

> > There wasn’t much buildup to their romantic relationship, not really.

> > It started with Jon being rude (and unprofessional) towards Martin, and an implied crush on Martin’s side. The only interaction we got then was when Martin gave his Prentiss statement, and Jon treated him coldly. Then, during the Prentiss attack, they had their second major interaction (and a moment of brief closure of sorts?). But it didn’t amount to anything. Then Jon’s paranoia successfully destroyed nearly every relationship he had.

> > "S2 – S4, when Jon finally stopped being selfish and went from being cold towards Martin/barley considering his opinion, to feeling guilty when lying to him/seeing Martin as the only person he trusts, the one he would run off with. Viewing Martin’s side of things, it’s pretty clear to me that he cared for Jon since the start, if not romantically, then just as a person. For me, in that form, there was undeniable chemistry.”

> > Chemistry is not the same as attraction. Martin obviously had a crush on Jon, and was devastated when Jon was in a coma. But if I’m not wrong, chemistry refers more to the way the characters interact with eachother. Martin and Jon’s interactions before s5 were little more than a conversation between coworkers. And, the way i see it, the main reason in later seasons Jon started viewing Martin as the only person he can trust was less tied to romantic feelings of any sort, and more because he was the only person left that didn’t outright despise him for becoming a monster.

> > Yes, Martin cared, but he didn’t actually know Jon as a person. They were simply coworkers, stuck in the same, shitty, haunted office job.

> > “Yes, the escalation of their relationship during eyepocalypse can be viewed as forced, because they’re one of the only surviving people. I find it, in contrary, quite tragic, that they’re forced to take the start of their relationship through the nine circles of hell. And no, I don’t believe that the only reason they worked out is because they were forced to stick to each other. I don’t believe that because up to that moment, there was a consistent build up. Yes, those times are not quite healthy and are depressing, BUT ONLY BECAUSE ITS NOT REALLY A COMMON SITUATION, IS IT? Yes, they argue, but I see it as "they try their best”

> > While i agree with you that there was a build-up of sorts, i would argue that it felt more like it would lead to a friendship rather than outright romance. Jon has barely had any time to warm up to Martin, especially with the latter separating himself completely (I’m referring to the whole “succumbing to the Lonely” thing and Martin’s self-isolation - they didn’t even have a chance to properly talk!). The jump to romance felt like it was either forced by the writers, or made out of desperation (on Jon’s side - i mean, the whole “rescue Martin from the Lonely” thing was acting on impulse.)

> > Also, throughout season 5, there are multiple situations showing that jmart don’t really know eachother. Peter Lukas even called them out in his statement:

> > It all boils down to this, really. Neither of them really know the other person; Martin’s stuck on his “precious image of Jon”, as Elias said, and Jon? He’s utterly desperate to keep the remaining bits of humanity to his chest, and tossing himself into a relationship with someone that cares, or at least used to care about him is perfect for that.

> > Their relationship helps them both stay grounded and not succumb to monsterhood, not to mention that by staying with Jon Martin is shielded from the physical aspect of the horrors, which might just be the best case scenario for him. There are romantic feelings involved, I can’t deny it, but those feelings are based on their views of each other.

> > What I’m saying is they never got enough time to get to know each other, so they’re stuck on their made-up versions. This is not the basis for a healthy relationship.

> > I am aware that they’re literally walking through the apocalypse, and they don’t really have much room to work on themselves when there'sso much horror around, but my role isn’t to judge them based on whether their actions are justified or not. They’re fictional characters, and their relationship is just the usual toxic kind. It’s not unique to them, and therefore not very interesting.

> > I’m sure that if you’ve already warmed up to the characters, then this relationship is everything you could’ve wished for, but my issue is that I only slightly care for Jon, and I don’t look at the writing through rose-colored glasses like most jmart fans.

> > Also I’ve noticed that they’re not equal when it comes to their contribution to the relationship. Jon is almost constantly pushing his needs to the side, trying his best to make Martin comfortable and accommodate him as much as he can, considered the circumstances they’re in. But Martin doesn’t even try to express compassion towards Jon’s loss of humanity, he doesn’t offer him any help (for example he brushed off Jon’s need to make statements, saying that he doesn’t want to hear them because it makes him uncomfortable, and doesn’t pause to consider how Jon must feel in this situation.)

> > I understand that this is because of their circumstances. Hell, if I were surrounded by horror from all sides, I’d be constantly on edge as well. But it makes their relationship unhealthy.

> > Jon’s monsterhood is a big part of his character at that point, and Martin refusing to accommodate for his boyfriend’s new needs shows that he doesn’t actually care about the man, just for who he thought Jon once was. He sees Jon’s newfound powers as either an inconvenience or a tool for his personal use.

> > Examples of Martin’s ignorance and hypocrisy: /lh

> > Keep reading

> Alright! And here I thought I’m gonna be the queen of detailed response here (/the most pos)

> Thank you for responding in such detailed way, there are certainly some new arguments I saw from you, the ones I agree with. Like “Their relationship build up is better well-written for companionship, rather then romance”

> But the one aspect I ultimately don’t agree with is viewing Martin’s later not-caring as a toxicity. For me, the decision to write him that way is fuled by the following arguments:

> 1) From the beginning, he was the one catering to their relationship (trying to make it happen). In season 1, despite Jon’s cold attitude, Martin still, tried to set up some connection (often in unhealthy way, by suppressing his own needs). So I view the way he acts in season 5 as some sort of little revenge for that.

> 2) How much of Martin “not caring for Jon’s needs, while he’s trying so hard to make their relationship work” can be considered selfish? I think it’s more of the question “why should Martin put up with aspects that genuinely make him uncomfortable, just for the sake of supporting Jon?” Statements are the primary example. It is established that they weird people out and, while it can be desirable for Martin to support Jon in any form, he’s not obliged to do that. Especially if it affects him in the negative way mentally. He’s already given enough.

> 3) Writting and comedic effect. Alex and Jonny can write certain scenes certain way just for the sake of it? To have fun when Martin gets jealous, or being lovingly patronising with “He’ll behave” part. Again, I don’t think it’s necessarily toxic.

> Overall, I don’t think that Martin is generally NOT supportive. He insists on sitting and relaxing together, shakes Jon out of the statments, when things about to go south and they generally, look after each other (even if Jon is technically more powerful as a being) Even during the apocalypse, they stick together, joke around and share brief relaxing moments. There might not be much romance, but there certainly is some amount of it.

> But to summarise, ultimately, I think it all melts down to what ships we like/prefer. According to thay, we will view some parts of the story differently. From your point of view, you don’t see jmart as the most interesting one, and that’s good! And I might not perfer Elias/Jon (primary because of the said toxicity) and that’s also fine! I cannot argue with tastes, but thanks to the detailed arguments, I can understand different points of view better. So thank you for openness and being willing to discuss! 😚

Tbh you said it perfectly. I have absolutely nothing to add to that. You made a lot of great points, and honestly it made me reconsider my own perception of the ship. You’re right, it all boils down to personal preferences in the end.

Now that i think about it, I mainly have a problem not with the ship itself as the canon presents it, but with the fanon characterization - veeery often they’re watered down to “big fluffy protective boyfiend” and “dangerous but soft monster”. It’s bland, it’s shallow, and worst of all it is completely out of character. And since jmart takes up a large part of canon (they had an entire season!) and is most people’s favourite part of the podcast (back then they used to binge it just to get to season 5), there’s a TON of content of them and nearly ALL of it is blatant mischaracterization. But there’s nothing to be done about that. I can only make a few angry posts and get flamed for it by the hardcore fans; after all I’m the minority here.

I’m very glad we could have this discussion. I’m gonna spend the next few hours recalibrating my jmart opinions to fit more what you said. If you ever disagree with something I said again don’t hesitate to hit me up!!!