martin blackwood deffo had a freak character ai phase where he’d be like “heh… at least the bots don’t leave me… :)” and he wouldn’t actually talk to any real person for months. that’s actually his Lonely phase in my mind. that’s what happened s4. it is canon.
tma fans will create jmart dynamics from HELL with even less understanding of Martin’s character than even me (and that’s impressive because I actively and intentionally avoid anything about him) - as well as mischaraterizing Jon obviously - and then act surprised when I say that the romance and the overfocus on shipping in the fandom negatively impacted the podcast 😒
Like please guys I understand that y'all are starved of queer rep but PLEASE there’s so much more to the podcast and so much more interesting parts of this 🤧🤧
mostly just think he’s annoying and I don’t like that he’s abusive to his bf. that’s the summary and the rest is just waffle
The main issue for me is the treatment he gets in the fandom tbh. Every single character is scrutinized and all of their wrongdoings are highlighted in fan works, like Daisy’s killings, Jon’s feedings, Melanie’s stabbings. When creating something related to that character, most fans will include those actions, because it doesn’t matter whether they were ‘good’ or 'bad’ - what matters is those actions help outline the character’s personality.
But of course the shy stuttering man can do no wrong ever!!! Awe Martin baby boi cinnamon roll i want to hold him!!! Martin my sweetie I’ll treat you better than your mother!! I don’t think I’ve seen a single good take on Martin made by a Martin fan. They’re all so shallow, and the few I’ve seen that were kinda good and actually saw nuance in his character all romanticized his flaws.
To be fair this is a problem in all fandom spaces, and as long as fandom exists, there are going to be people who actively participate in it while only engaging with the source material at a base level, which results in them confining characters to tropes just so they can ship them. And dont get me wrong, i love shipping, but i love meaningful shipping. If i wanted to see one of those “scary but soft partner x overprotective boyfriend” tropes, I’d go to a bookstore and pick up the first position in the lgbtq+ section. I live for nuance babey!!!
mostly just think he’s annoying and I don’t like that he’s abusive to his bf. that’s the summary and the rest is just waffle
The main issue for me is the treatment he gets in the fandom tbh. Every single character is scrutinized and all of their wrongdoings are highlighted in fan works, like Daisy’s killings, Jon’s feedings, Melanie’s stabbings. When creating something related to that character, most fans will include those actions, because it doesn’t matter whether they were ‘good’ or 'bad’ - what matters is those actions help outline the character’s personality.
But of course the shy stuttering man can do no wrong ever!!! Awe Martin baby boi cinnamon roll i want to hold him!!! Martin my sweetie I’ll treat you better than your mother!! I don’t think I’ve seen a single good take on Martin made by a Martin fan. They’re all so shallow, and the few I’ve seen that were kinda good and actually saw nuance in his character all romanticized his flaws.
To be fair this is a problem in all fandom spaces, and as long as fandom exists, there are going to be people who actively participate in it while only engaging with the source material at a base level, which results in them confining characters to tropes just so they can ship them. And dont get me wrong, i love shipping, but i love meaningful shipping. If i wanted to see one of those “scary but soft partner x overprotective boyfriend” tropes, I’d go to a bookstore and pick up the first position in the lgbtq+ section. I live for nuance babey!!!
And also there’s the issue of Martin being the stereotypical “shitty queer boyfriend” in canon. He expresses himself in a cartoonish manner, making himself appear almost childish despite being a grown man (annoying), wallows in his sadness but doesn’t allow Jon to do the same because he’s a monster, and is generally unsympathetic and unlikable. Oh sweetie I’m so sorry your mother hates you and you have depression, but it’s not a free pass to hate on your boyfriend.
I don’t like him not because he’s a bad person, but because people like him irl are generally kinda shitty. His brand of toxicity is everything but charming and imo thats the biggest crime a fictional character can commit. He’s boring.
I listen to TMA for the cool scary stories, not to hear a grown man whine about how he’s uncomfortable witnessing the horrors to his tormented sacrificial lamb of a boyfriend. I hate jmart-teaholding-whatever-you-call-it with a burning passion. They should’ve separated. Or argued more at least. I blame the writers plus the pressure on including queer rep in 2020. Rip season 5 you could’ve been so good
mostly just think he’s annoying and I don’t like that he’s abusive to his bf. that’s the summary and the rest is just waffle
The main issue for me is the treatment he gets in the fandom tbh. Every single character is scrutinized and all of their wrongdoings are highlighted in fan works, like Daisy’s killings, Jon’s feedings, Melanie’s stabbings. When creating something related to that character, most fans will include those actions, because it doesn’t matter whether they were ‘good’ or 'bad’ - what matters is those actions help outline the character’s personality.
But of course the shy stuttering man can do no wrong ever!!! Awe Martin baby boi cinnamon roll i want to hold him!!! Martin my sweetie I’ll treat you better than your mother!! I don’t think I’ve seen a single good take on Martin made by a Martin fan. They’re all so shallow, and the few I’ve seen that were kinda good and actually saw nuance in his character all romanticized his flaws.
To be fair this is a problem in all fandom spaces, and as long as fandom exists, there are going to be people who actively participate in it while only engaging with the source material at a base level, which results in them confining characters to tropes just so they can ship them. And dont get me wrong, i love shipping, but i love meaningful shipping. If i wanted to see one of those “scary but soft partner x overprotective boyfriend” tropes, I’d go to a bookstore and pick up the first position in the lgbtq+ section. I live for nuance babey!!!
And also there’s the issue of Martin being the stereotypical “shitty queer boyfriend” in canon. He expresses himself in a cartoonish manner, making himself appear almost childish despite being a grown man (annoying), wallows in his sadness but doesn’t allow Jon to do the same because he’s a monster, and is generally unsympathetic and unlikable. Oh sweetie I’m so sorry your mother hates you and you have depression, but it’s not a free pass to hate on your boyfriend.
I don’t like him not because he’s a bad person, but because people like him irl are generally kinda shitty. His brand of toxicity is everything but charming and imo thats the biggest crime a fictional character can commit. He’s boring.
I listen to TMA for the cool scary stories, not to hear a grown man whine about how he’s uncomfortable witnessing the horrors to his tormented sacrificial lamb of a boyfriend. I hate jmart-teaholding-whatever-you-call-it with a burning passion. They should’ve separated. Or argued more at least. I blame the writers plus the pressure on including queer rep in 2020. Rip season 5 you could’ve been so good
I know I’m not the one anon is asking but I saw an opportunity to rant and couldn’t resist 😋
In a world full of Martin K. Blackwood’s fans, be a Martin hater. Stay true to yourself no matter what others may tell you. One day the haters shall rule this fandom
Its really bothering me that people hating on jmart always make their own tags. Like baby i want to see itttt pleaseeee!!! I want to see that delicious criticism but you’re making it hard for me!!!!!
Its really bothering me that people hating on jmart always make their own tags. Like baby i want to see itttt pleaseeee!!! I want to see that delicious criticism but you’re making it hard for me!!!!!
Also its kinda funny that there’s like 5 really good jmart criticism post and theyre all in circulation. I keep seeing them
Someone make new posts in the anti jmart tag pleaseeee please please
martin blackwood doesn’t vote. he does NOT care about democracy
Wait no, he’d be really passionate about not voting because “well both of the candidates are bad!!! I cant vote for either!!! Boycott voting!!!”
He wouldn’t really get the concept of democracy, he’d be really into progressiveness but he would limit himself to cancelling celebrities online. And he’d be anti protests etc etc
martin blackwood doesn’t vote. he does NOT care about democracy
Wait no, he’d be really passionate about not voting because “well both of the candidates are bad!!! I cant vote for either!!! Boycott voting!!!”
He wouldn’t really get the concept of democracy, he’d be really into progressiveness but he would limit himself to cancelling celebrities online. And he’d be anti protests etc etc
hmmmmm i see the characterisation you’re going for but I feel like his s5 attitude to statements implies that he’d have much more as a disconnect and apathy for anything ‘political’. he’d just shut his eyes and pretend nothing bad is happening to anyone because it’s not impacting him and he’d get really pissy whenever anyone tried to complain or start any conversation that requires him to engage with any opinion whatsoever
Okay yeah i see it. That man cares for himself and himself only. That AND he’s depressed!!! Pick a struggle 🙄
martin blackwood doesn’t vote. he does NOT care about democracy
Wait no, he’d be really passionate about not voting because “well both of the candidates are bad!!! I cant vote for either!!! Boycott voting!!!”
He wouldn’t really get the concept of democracy, he’d be really into progressiveness but he would limit himself to cancelling celebrities online. And he’d be anti protests etc etc
hmmmmm i see the characterisation you’re going for but I feel like his s5 attitude to statements implies that he’d have much more as a disconnect and apathy for anything ‘political’. he’d just shut his eyes and pretend nothing bad is happening to anyone because it’s not impacting him and he’d get really pissy whenever anyone tried to complain or start any conversation that requires him to engage with any opinion whatsoever
Okay yeah i see it. That man cares for himself and himself only. That AND he’s depressed!!! Pick a struggle 🙄
He’s both his own biggest hater and his own biggest fan. Double trouble. Wish Jon wasn’t so starved for a relationship in s5 so he could see how awful his man actually is
martin blackwood doesn’t vote. he does NOT care about democracy
Wait no, he’d be really passionate about not voting because “well both of the candidates are bad!!! I cant vote for either!!! Boycott voting!!!”
He wouldn’t really get the concept of democracy, he’d be really into progressiveness but he would limit himself to cancelling celebrities online. And he’d be anti protests etc etc
hmmmmm i see the characterisation you’re going for but I feel like his s5 attitude to statements implies that he’d have much more as a disconnect and apathy for anything ‘political’. he’d just shut his eyes and pretend nothing bad is happening to anyone because it’s not impacting him and he’d get really pissy whenever anyone tried to complain or start any conversation that requires him to engage with any opinion whatsoever
Okay yeah i see it. That man cares for himself and himself only. That AND he’s depressed!!! Pick a struggle 🙄
He’s both his own biggest hater and his own biggest fan. Double trouble. Wish Jon wasn’t so starved for a relationship in s5 so he could see how awful his man actually is
Ohh or he would have that shitty attitude “well there’s bigger problems than that!! Like world hunger!!” And just use it as an excuse to not do anything to change it
unfortunately i’m like 160 episodes into tma and still don’t get the obsession with martin. like i don’t hate him but also- literally every other character and relationship is more interesting. also fanon version of him sucks lol. canon version of him is actually appealing to me in some ways, but considering fanon martin makes 90% of tma fic unreadable, i’m not too stoked about even having him tagged half the time.
“Martin matched Jon’s freak” Jon didn’t unwittingly pledge himself to the same patron as Elias and keep bones in his office and admit to the beauty of the apocalypse and spend an entire season obsessed with killing him for you to say that Jon’s freak is being matched by, of all people, Martin why are you enjoying killing people after I pushed you to kill people, you weren’t supposed to go against my cottagecore fantasy :( Blackwood.
i'm so happy for your haterposting can you spew more criticisms about tmagp. i was rrrrreally obsessed with the original tma circa 2020 but something about tmagp puts me off --- to be fair tma s5 wasn't great either i think it's just the tma. TWO!!! -ification of the everything or overestimating how into jmart the audience is
my core criticism of tmagp is simply that they are trying too hard. i think that the show is almost too self-aware, which i realize is kind of a stupid thing to say about the perpetual omniscient awareness podcast but it has thrown me off so genuinely that i am having such a hard time getting into it. a lot of that has to come with the conceit of the story; the mystery cannot kick off 40 episodes in, drawing off of the seeds planted in those first isolated episodes, because there are only going to be 90 or so episodes total, in comparison to 200. also, by virtue of tmagp being a sequel (and don’t try to tell me it’s not a sequel) we are entering with more questions than we were when starting tma for the first time—these questions are not organically raised during the show; we are consuming the show for answers to these specific questions.
and, to be perfectly honest, i don’t want these questions to be answered. i was not a fan of tma’s 5th season, but the best part of the finale was the ambiguity! i don’t want to know what happened to jon and martin (especially not martin, i’d be happier if i never had to think about him again) because the entire point of the whole thing is that we, the audience, don’t get to know. this is so important especially for tma because us as listeners have been cast as antagonists within the text of the show for listening in the first place. we have been privy to everything, so for us to be barred from that final closure is the entire point of the ending. to then make a sequel series where the intrigue of the story revolves around ‘what happened to jon and martin’ undermines the themes of tma and the purpose of the finale.
aside from all of that, i don’t care about a single character and actively dislike more than half of them, i am not invested in a single relationship, i think some of the voice acting is definitely wanting, i am not compelled by the creepy office job cubicle haunted excel vibes of the whole thing, and it just feels, well, dumber than tma, maybe because they’re working with fewer episodes to tell a complex story. the new statements don’t inspire near the level of emotion and fear that i felt while listening to tma, and they make me listen to martin’s whiny little voice do a text-to-speech impression. because of WOKE!!!!!!
prompting you to rant about tma s5 i only know this podcast through osmosis. never knew there was martin hate i always saw fanart and stuff and he seems like a fandom lil gay blorbo....
yin he IS a fandom little gay blorbo i and i still manage to hate him i’m a hashtag contrarian!!!!! seasons 1-4 contain some of the most amazing storytelling and writing i’ve ever seen in not just a podcast but like. media as a whole. and then you get to season five and it’s the terrible no good jon and martin fieldtrip where we stop to do a ten minute long navel-gazey pretentious slam poem and THEN take a break from progressing plot to be mad at jon for a situation that is maybe the most out of his control than a situation has ever been out of anyone’s control ever. martin will oscillate between hot and cold whenever he feels like it and they try to do the vile soft boy tea-loving sweatervest gay is actually a manipulative girlboss thing but he doesn’t come off as smart or cunning he’s just a cunt!!!! yes jon i squashed all of your doubt and guilt over revenging yourself on one of your enemies because i liked it and it was moral and right. not ten episodes later and maybe two other disintegrations (of bonafide evil demons basically) or whatever later he literally tells jon that he ‘wasn’t supposed to like it that much’ i need to kill him for real. also this is totally off topic but all of the fanart literally makes jon and martin into personified versions of those kiki and bouba images do you know what i’m talking about???? anyways i hate it it’s hideous. basically all of this is to say that the entire podcast crawled up its own ass and died. SAD!!!!
whispers into your inbox "jmart was the worst thing that could have happened in tma; it wrecked Jon's character and is the most transparent 'how do we not have our mc become suicidal?' I have ever seen. TMA then falls into the hole of the only important or good enough relationships being romantic, discarding previous character development to throw everything into romance solves all ~ ♡ I hate it and I hate how much Jon is woobified and infantilized in the fandom to drool over Martin and I hate how everyone acts like their relationship is good, when I think either of them with 5 years of a normal life would realize how awful the relationship was for both of them." Anyway lol I expect no response or post of this I am just being spicey on anon
oh anon you thought i was gonna see a take like this and not post it?
i need you to out yourself to me because goddamn this is an interesting take!
look, i love jmart, but even with 5 seasons of development they still somehow managed to feel rushed?
i disagree in that their relationship being unhealthy is a bad thing for them, because like the appeal of podcasts for me is the fucked up relationships. fucked up characters = fucked up relationships, yknow? like john and arthur from malevolent, normally, they’d hate each other without much of a second thought, but that’s not the point, they love each other despite that, and that kind of extends to jmart for me.
i also totally agree with the fandom criticism, woobifying jon is like the only tma content i see on twt and it is soooooo annoying.
my personal qualms with tma however is in part the lore decisions and how the fandom treats the lore (and also the whole podcast).
s1 is easily the best season, mostly because you have no fucking idea what’s going on, but after s2 things really start feeling like they’re being drawn out, at least to me? like i think season 3-4 couldve been one thing, and um. season 5 is fun if you like jmart and the eye ig. i know most of this is a gross oversimplification (not forgetting yall basira&daisy fans) but after the core cast of season 1-2 i could not really get the other characters being fundamental in the story (not georgie. i love georgie)
don’t get me wrong, the not-sasha arc was amazing! but after tim died, and martin fucked off for most of a season being sad, i was a bit bored. the buried isnt interesting to me sorry.
and also they under-utilize basically every fear, including the eye, and the one that upsets me the most is the stranger. oh what is it? circus and clowns ig. LIKE OPEN UP YOUR EYES THE WORLD IS OPEN TO YOU THE UNCANNY VALLEY AS SO MANY NICHES PLEASE
and by the end of the show, it just feels like they keep rotating the same 3 fears, and the others just kind fade into the bg
and then there’s the fandom. i’m sorry but some of you guys act like tma is the end-all-be-all of fiction horror podcasts. when it’s just not. sorry, but the magnus archives, after s1, just isnt scary. you know what’s going on, the fears! which are neatly tied into these categories of oddities!
and the show explicitly states that the 14 fears categorization is arbitrary and that they all bleed into one another, but the fandom just. ignores that? like i’ve heard so many people go to other podcasts and say “oh x is so eye avatar-coded!!” and then x just has some vague eye symbolism that isnt even the point (this is about arthur lester)
and like i don’t understand how tma manages to be the most mainstream fiction podcast nowadays, when welcome to night vale is right there ! and yes, i am implying that wtnv is objectively better than tma, because wtnv despite running for 12 goddamn years has never bored me with an episode, and it has roughly the same amounts of episodes! they both have similar formats that could repetitive quick (radio show vs statements) and even though i’d say statements have more creative freedom, wtnv still manages to not be boring. this might also just be a fact of better and more varied authors but hey, this is just my opinion
i want it to be clear that i’m not trying to start discourse, i still like tma! the fanartists are some of the most talented artists i’ve seen, and the fics are just aughhhhhhhhhhhh /pos
Spicy take and I would absolutely love to hear other peoples opinions on this but I genuinely think that Martin and Jon would break up Somewhere Else. No matter where they end up, their relationship formed during a highly traumatic time and the few “domestic” moments we got and especially the apocalypse made them feel incompatible to me. Jon doesn’t like being fussed at and Martin seems to need to care for someone in that manner, not to mention (I know it was because the last season had problems for many reasons but still) Martin was often highly hypocritical and there was never any communication about that?? They never got the chance to really interact except in highly stressful situations and I feel like it would be unhealthy afterwards
Idk just my thoughts but im interested in hearing other peoples reasons why they like them together
Spicy take and I would absolutely love to hear other peoples opinions on this but I genuinely think that Martin and Jon would break up Somewhere Else. No matter where they end up, their relationship formed during a highly traumatic time and the few “domestic” moments we got and especially the apocalypse made them feel incompatible to me. Jon doesn’t like being fussed at and Martin seems to need to care for someone in that manner, not to mention (I know it was because the last season had problems for many reasons but still) Martin was often highly hypocritical and there was never any communication about that?? They never got the chance to really interact except in highly stressful situations and I feel like it would be unhealthy afterwards
Idk just my thoughts but im interested in hearing other peoples reasons why they like them together
I personally think that this take isn’t even spicy, just being mature adults and realizing you just Aren’t Compatible. Ngl I honestly think they should have never gotten together in the first place. Even if they’re trauma-bonded. Martin in MAG 163 was wholeheartedly ready to force Jon to never speak about what he was seeing, despite it clearly hurting Jon to See that much. He had to let it out and Martin said “Yeah well, tough. I am not going to be that for you.”
He didn’t even offer Jon an alternative, just told him he can’t speak about it to him, and it wasn’t like he was going to give Jon space. Jon had to offer up a different solution to placate Martin.
Like, I get you’re in a nightmare hellscape, but Jon is literally Seeing all the terror and feeling it and Knowing it while Martin is only seeing what is in front of him. Like, at least offer *something* up to help him.
Another thing I have noticed with their dynamic is that Jon helps Martin all the time, while Martin never offers anything to Jon unless it is to use him to kill someone he doesn’t personally like.
I was hoping to weed out more Martin dislikers. But alas, I am once again reminded that I am a minority in this fandom. If you don’t like Martin Blackwood then follow me please ♡ I want to see more nuanced takes than “he’s so adorable!!”
I was hoping to weed out more Martin dislikers. But alas, I am once again reminded that I am a minority in this fandom. If you don’t like Martin Blackwood then follow me please ♡ I want to see more nuanced takes than “he’s so adorable!!”
Actually might delete this. I feel like I’m being publicly booed rn
I was hoping to weed out more Martin dislikers. But alas, I am once again reminded that I am a minority in this fandom. If you don’t like Martin Blackwood then follow me please ♡ I want to see more nuanced takes than “he’s so adorable!!”
Since you screenshotted my tags I do feel the need to publicly state that Martin is my favourite tma character.. good luck with finding fellow haters though
I’m relistening to TMA season 5 and as I’m doing so, I can’t quite shake the feeling that Martin was mainly needed there for the viewer so that Jon would have to explain himself to both him and the audience
“nothing compares to listening to tma for the first time and realising jonmartin are going to be canon canon not just exaggerated by the fandom or heavily implied” i cannot stress this enough but they are exaggerated. The fanon version is NOTHING like canon its just that by the time you get to s5 your vision of them got severely warped by fanon and you can’t see the obvious dissonances in their relationship
Martin literally just does what every single other character has already done - he shits on Jon for being a monster, except that he will also occasionally say stuff like “I love you”, “I won’t let you sacrifice yourself” etc.
But under all that he feels the same disgust towards Jon as everyone else. And Jon is too busy dealing with his own guilt to notice.
Also their mutual desire to sacrifice themself for the other, while seemingly so noble and considered by fans “a proof for their love”, is selfish in its origin.
Every single ship with Jon has chemistry and an interesting dynamic except for jmart. This is truly heartbreaking
@littledolphinchan you said so much that I decided against responding in the comments, so I’m going to reply to you here. I have also divided your response into sections to make it easier for me. And also you’re blue now ☆
“I mean, you listened to the podcast, right? Even if you consider their canonisation solely "a favour to the fans” you can’t deny that there was a significant buildup to that.“
There wasn’t much buildup to their romantic relationship, not really.
It started with Jon being rude (and unprofessional) towards Martin, and an implied crush on Martin’s side. The only interaction we got then was when Martin gave his Prentiss statement, and Jon treated him coldly. Then, during the Prentiss attack, they had their second major interaction (and a moment of brief closure of sorts?). But it didn’t amount to anything. Then Jon’s paranoia successfully destroyed nearly every relationship he had.
"S2 – S4, when Jon finally stopped being selfish and went from being cold towards Martin/barley considering his opinion, to feeling guilty when lying to him/seeing Martin as the only person he trusts, the one he would run off with. Viewing Martin’s side of things, it’s pretty clear to me that he cared for Jon since the start, if not romantically, then just as a person. For me, in that form, there was undeniable chemistry.”
Chemistry is not the same as attraction. Martin obviously had a crush on Jon, and was devastated when Jon was in a coma. But if I’m not wrong, chemistry refers more to the way the characters interact with eachother. Martin and Jon’s interactions before s5 were little more than a conversation between coworkers. And, the way i see it, the main reason in later seasons Jon started viewing Martin as the only person he can trust was less tied to romantic feelings of any sort, and more because he was the only person left that didn’t outright despise him for becoming a monster.
Yes, Martin cared, but he didn’t actually know Jon as a person. They were simply coworkers, stuck in the same, shitty, haunted office job.
“Yes, the escalation of their relationship during eyepocalypse can be viewed as forced, because they’re one of the only surviving people. I find it, in contrary, quite tragic, that they’re forced to take the start of their relationship through the nine circles of hell. And no, I don’t believe that the only reason they worked out is because they were forced to stick to each other. I don’t believe that because up to that moment, there was a consistent build up. Yes, those times are not quite healthy and are depressing, BUT ONLY BECAUSE ITS NOT REALLY A COMMON SITUATION, IS IT? Yes, they argue, but I see it as "they try their best”
While i agree with you that there was a build-up of sorts, i would argue that it felt more like it would lead to a friendship rather than outright romance. Jon has barely had any time to warm up to Martin, especially with the latter separating himself completely (I’m referring to the whole “succumbing to the Lonely” thing and Martin’s self-isolation - they didn’t even have a chance to properly talk!). The jump to romance felt like it was either forced by the writers, or made out of desperation (on Jon’s side - i mean, the whole “rescue Martin from the Lonely” thing was acting on impulse.)
Also, throughout season 5, there are multiple situations showing that jmart don’t really know eachother. Peter Lukas even called them out in his statement:
It all boils down to this, really. Neither of them really know the other person; Martin’s stuck on his “precious image of Jon”, as Elias said, and Jon? He’s utterly desperate to keep the remaining bits of humanity to his chest, and tossing himself into a relationship with someone that cares, or at least used to care about him is perfect for that.
Their relationship helps them both stay grounded and not succumb to monsterhood, not to mention that by staying with Jon Martin is shielded from the physical aspect of the horrors, which might just be the best case scenario for him. There are romantic feelings involved, I can’t deny it, but those feelings are based on their viewsof each other.
What I’m saying is they never got enough time to get to know each other, so they’re stuck on their made-up versions. This is not the basis for a healthy relationship.
I am aware that they’re literally walking through the apocalypse, and they don’t really have much room to work on themselves when there'sso much horror around, but my role isn’t to judge them based on whether their actions are justified or not. They’re fictional characters, and their relationship is just the usual toxic kind. It’s not unique to them, and therefore not very interesting.
I’m sure that if you’ve already warmed up to the characters, then this relationship is everything you could’ve wished for, but my issue is that I only slightly care for Jon, and I don’t look at the writing through rose-colored glasses like most jmart fans.
Also I’ve noticed that they’re not equal when it comes to their contribution to the relationship. Jon is almost constantly pushing his needs to the side, trying his best to make Martin comfortable and accommodate him as much as he can, considered the circumstances they’re in. But Martin doesn’t even try to express compassion towards Jon’s loss of humanity, he doesn’t offer him any help (for example he brushed off Jon’s need to make statements, saying that he doesn’t want to hear them because it makes him uncomfortable, and doesn’t pause to consider how Jon must feel in this situation.)
I understand that this is because of their circumstances. Hell, if I were surrounded by horror from all sides, I’d be constantly on edge as well. But it makes their relationship unhealthy.
Jon’s monsterhood is a big part of his character at that point, and Martin refusing to accommodate for his boyfriend’s new needs shows that he doesn’t actually care about the man, just for who he thought Jon once was. He sees Jon’s newfound powers as either an inconvenience or a tool for his personal use.
Examples of Martin’s ignorance and hypocrisy: /lh
However, while you absolutely are allowed to enjoy toxic relationships, my main problem with jmart is that it doesn’t give us anything new. That’s just a basic, supposedly romantic (described as such, although i have my doubts) relationship, with a certain amount of disgust and deflection from Martin’s side, which is what the rest of the cast was already doing.
Compare it to jonelias. It obviously isn’t a relationship that you wish to be in, but the dynamic is interesting. The monster and the one who caused him to be that way. You’re the one that hurt me the most and you love the monster you created. Peak toxic yaoi. Meanwhile jmart is mainly your usual toxic codependence between two people who don’t really know each other.
“And the statement that "Martin has better chemistry in ANY other ship”? Oh yeah, like what? Martim and archival polycule are the only few I can think of? Even if we don’t bring up secondary characters, do you truly believe he has more chemistry with ANYONE than mentioned 3 ships? I’d like to hear your opinion too!“ "Sorry, in the last paragraph I gave examples of Martin ships. Talking about Jon, there are a few interesting ones, such as ships with Daizy, Elias, Gerry and Tim. But still, I think Jmart has the most thought put into it”
I said that Jon has better chemistry with everyone than with Martin (being a direct result of them not knowing each other). By that i mean Jon has so much more in common with almost everyone except for Martin (and maybe characters like Georgie or Rosie).
In regards of my dislike of jmart, I feel like I’ve already explained myself sufficiently. And about Martin ships, i quite like early seasons MarTim. They look out for each other, and their bond feels genuine and natural.
Every single ship with Jon has chemistry and an interesting dynamic except for jmart. This is truly heartbreaking
@littledolphinchan you said so much that I decided against responding in the comments, so I’m going to reply to you here. I have also divided your response into sections to make it easier for me. And also you’re blue now ☆
“I mean, you listened to the podcast, right? Even if you consider their canonisation solely "a favour to the fans” you can’t deny that there was a significant buildup to that.“
There wasn’t much buildup to their romantic relationship, not really.
It started with Jon being rude (and unprofessional) towards Martin, and an implied crush on Martin’s side. The only interaction we got then was when Martin gave his Prentiss statement, and Jon treated him coldly. Then, during the Prentiss attack, they had their second major interaction (and a moment of brief closure of sorts?). But it didn’t amount to anything. Then Jon’s paranoia successfully destroyed nearly every relationship he had.
"S2 – S4, when Jon finally stopped being selfish and went from being cold towards Martin/barley considering his opinion, to feeling guilty when lying to him/seeing Martin as the only person he trusts, the one he would run off with. Viewing Martin’s side of things, it’s pretty clear to me that he cared for Jon since the start, if not romantically, then just as a person. For me, in that form, there was undeniable chemistry.”
Chemistry is not the same as attraction. Martin obviously had a crush on Jon, and was devastated when Jon was in a coma. But if I’m not wrong, chemistry refers more to the way the characters interact with eachother. Martin and Jon’s interactions before s5 were little more than a conversation between coworkers. And, the way i see it, the main reason in later seasons Jon started viewing Martin as the only person he can trust was less tied to romantic feelings of any sort, and more because he was the only person left that didn’t outright despise him for becoming a monster.
Yes, Martin cared, but he didn’t actually know Jon as a person. They were simply coworkers, stuck in the same, shitty, haunted office job.
“Yes, the escalation of their relationship during eyepocalypse can be viewed as forced, because they’re one of the only surviving people. I find it, in contrary, quite tragic, that they’re forced to take the start of their relationship through the nine circles of hell. And no, I don’t believe that the only reason they worked out is because they were forced to stick to each other. I don’t believe that because up to that moment, there was a consistent build up. Yes, those times are not quite healthy and are depressing, BUT ONLY BECAUSE ITS NOT REALLY A COMMON SITUATION, IS IT? Yes, they argue, but I see it as "they try their best”
While i agree with you that there was a build-up of sorts, i would argue that it felt more like it would lead to a friendship rather than outright romance. Jon has barely had any time to warm up to Martin, especially with the latter separating himself completely (I’m referring to the whole “succumbing to the Lonely” thing and Martin’s self-isolation - they didn’t even have a chance to properly talk!). The jump to romance felt like it was either forced by the writers, or made out of desperation (on Jon’s side - i mean, the whole “rescue Martin from the Lonely” thing was acting on impulse.)
Also, throughout season 5, there are multiple situations showing that jmart don’t really know eachother. Peter Lukas even called them out in his statement:
It all boils down to this, really. Neither of them really know the other person; Martin’s stuck on his “precious image of Jon”, as Elias said, and Jon? He’s utterly desperate to keep the remaining bits of humanity to his chest, and tossing himself into a relationship with someone that cares, or at least used to care about him is perfect for that.
Their relationship helps them both stay grounded and not succumb to monsterhood, not to mention that by staying with Jon Martin is shielded from the physical aspect of the horrors, which might just be the best case scenario for him. There are romantic feelings involved, I can’t deny it, but those feelings are based on their viewsof each other.
What I’m saying is they never got enough time to get to know each other, so they’re stuck on their made-up versions. This is not the basis for a healthy relationship.
I am aware that they’re literally walking through the apocalypse, and they don’t really have much room to work on themselves when there'sso much horror around, but my role isn’t to judge them based on whether their actions are justified or not. They’re fictional characters, and their relationship is just the usual toxic kind. It’s not unique to them, and therefore not very interesting.
I’m sure that if you’ve already warmed up to the characters, then this relationship is everything you could’ve wished for, but my issue is that I only slightly care for Jon, and I don’t look at the writing through rose-colored glasses like most jmart fans.
Also I’ve noticed that they’re not equal when it comes to their contribution to the relationship. Jon is almost constantly pushing his needs to the side, trying his best to make Martin comfortable and accommodate him as much as he can, considered the circumstances they’re in. But Martin doesn’t even try to express compassion towards Jon’s loss of humanity, he doesn’t offer him any help (for example he brushed off Jon’s need to make statements, saying that he doesn’t want to hear them because it makes him uncomfortable, and doesn’t pause to consider how Jon must feel in this situation.)
I understand that this is because of their circumstances. Hell, if I were surrounded by horror from all sides, I’d be constantly on edge as well. But it makes their relationship unhealthy.
Jon’s monsterhood is a big part of his character at that point, and Martin refusing to accommodate for his boyfriend’s new needs shows that he doesn’t actually care about the man, just for who he thought Jon once was. He sees Jon’s newfound powers as either an inconvenience or a tool for his personal use.
Alright! And here I thought I’m gonna be the queen of detailed response here (/the most pos)
Thank you for responding in such detailed way, there are certainly some new arguments I saw from you, the ones I agree with. Like “Their relationship build up is better well-written for companionship, rather then romance”
But the one aspect I ultimately don’t agree with is viewing Martin’s later not-caring as a toxicity. For me, the decision to write him that way is fuled by the following arguments:
1) From the beginning, he was the one catering to their relationship (trying to make it happen). In season 1, despite Jon’s cold attitude, Martin still, tried to set up some connection (often in unhealthy way, by suppressing his own needs). So I view the way he acts in season 5 as some sort of little revenge for that.
2) How much of Martin “not caring for Jon’s needs, while he’s trying so hard to make their relationship work” can be considered selfish? I think it’s more of the question “why should Martin put up with aspects that genuinely make him uncomfortable, just for the sake of supporting Jon?” Statements are the primary example. It is established that they weird people out and, while it can be desirable for Martin to support Jon in any form, he’s not obliged to do that. Especially if it affects him in the negative way mentally. He’s already given enough.
3) Writting and comedic effect. Alex and Jonny can write certain scenes certain way just for the sake of it? To have fun when Martin gets jealous, or being lovingly patronising with “He’ll behave” part. Again, I don’t think it’s necessarily toxic.
Overall, I don’t think that Martin is generally NOT supportive. He insists on sitting and relaxing together, shakes Jon out of the statments, when things about to go south and they generally, look after each other (even if Jon is technically more powerful as a being) Even during the apocalypse, they stick together, joke around and share brief relaxing moments. There might not be much romance, but there certainly is some amount of it.
But to summarise, ultimately, I think it all melts down to what ships we like/prefer. According to thay, we will view some parts of the story differently. From your point of view, you don’t see jmart as the most interesting one, and that’s good! And I might not perfer Elias/Jon (primary because of the said toxicity) and that’s also fine! I cannot argue with tastes, but thanks to the detailed arguments, I can understand different points of view better. So thank you for openness and being willing to discuss! 😚
Tbh you said it perfectly. I have absolutely nothing to add to that. You made a lot of great points, and honestly it made me reconsider my own perception of the ship. You’re right, it all boils down to personal preferences in the end.
Now that i think about it, I mainly have a problem not with the ship itself as the canon presents it, but with the fanon characterization - veeery often they’re watered down to “big fluffy protective boyfiend” and “dangerous but soft monster”. It’s bland, it’s shallow, and worst of all it is completely out of character. And since jmart takes up a large part of canon (they had an entire season!) and is most people’s favourite part of the podcast (back then they used to binge it just to get to season 5), there’s a TON of content of them and nearly ALL of it is blatant mischaracterization. But there’s nothing to be done about that. I can only make a few angry posts and get flamed for it by the hardcore fans; after all I’m the minority here.
I’m very glad we could have this discussion. I’m gonna spend the next few hours recalibrating my jmart opinions to fit more what you said. If you ever disagree with something I said again don’t hesitate to hit me up!!!
Martin literally just does what every single other character has already done - he shits on Jon for being a monster, except that he will also occasionally say stuff like “I love you”, “I won’t let you sacrifice yourself” etc.
But under all that he feels the same disgust towards Jon as everyone else. And Jon is too busy dealing with his own guilt to notice.
Also their mutual desire to sacrifice themself for the other, while seemingly so noble and considered by fans “a proof for their love”, is selfish in its origin.
Martin doesn’t hate Jon’s monster side, and in fact encourages it a bit with verbally wanting Jon to go “kill bill” (mainly because he gets jealous when another man is alone with Jon)
This is where it gets complicated. The “kill bill” thing was more like Martin’s personal revenge streak. He doesn’t really consider Jon’s feelings regarding that, nor does he really care what the man has to say about it.
He expresses discomfort when Jon mentions the things tied to his avatarhood, like for example his need to make statements - which is justified of course, but it kinda makes him a shitty partner. I may be slightly biased since i don’t relate to Martin (and find him annoying in s5), but I’m trying to work with the canon here.
Martin literally just does what every single other character has already done - he shits on Jon for being a monster, except that he will also occasionally say stuff like “I love you”, “I won’t let you sacrifice yourself” etc.
But under all that he feels the same disgust towards Jon as everyone else. And Jon is too busy dealing with his own guilt to notice.
Also their mutual desire to sacrifice themself for the other, while seemingly so noble and considered by fans “a proof for their love”, is selfish in its origin.
Martin doesn’t hate Jon’s monster side, and in fact encourages it a bit with verbally wanting Jon to go “kill bill” (mainly because he gets jealous when another man is alone with Jon)
This is where it gets complicated. The “kill bill” thing was more like Martin’s personal revenge streak. He doesn’t really consider Jon’s feelings regarding that, nor does he really care what the man has to say about it.
He expresses discomfort when Jon mentions the things tied to his avatarhood, like for example his need to make statements - which is justified of course, but it kinda makes him a shitty partner. I may be slightly biased since i don’t relate to Martin (and find him annoying in s5), but I’m trying to work with the canon here.
Ykw. Yeah. You’re right. You’ve convinced me to join the Martin-hater side
Bc why is Martin like. Actually being such a bad partner??
I relate to Martin to an extent, but at least I’m making the effort to do better
I think this could’ve been resolved if their relationship had more buildup to it and didn’t feel so sudden.
The writers put together two people that only knew eachother as coworkers, and tossed them into the apocalypse right after that. Jon and Martin do love eachother, but they don’t know eachother besides their surface-level bickering. This relationship could’ve been salvaged in any other circumstances except the goddamn apocalypse, where both of them are constantly on edge. They can’t really sit down and talk about their feelings, when the primary feeling they’re experiencing is fear.
What I’m saying is jmart feels… kinda undercooked? It could’ve had a nice dynamic if it got actually developed. They’re just two friendly delusional coworkers. Theres no chemistry imo
Also THANK YOUU for not attacking me. Good talk 😋😋 ily ♡
This isn't really an argument but I've been thinking about it a lot - Mike crew was killed too fast too soon- Daisy irritates the crap out of me and Jon's hate towards her is more than justified - Sasha was killed too soon- I don't have the energy to plead all my cases and again I'm just about willing to see any other options
To be perfectly honest i didn’t even notice Mike Crew died when I first listened. I found that out only when I joined the fandom.
I don’t really have a strong opinion on Daisy, but from what I can remember her story and development are quite interesting. She hurt Jon terribly and he’s the only one that understands her. He tossed himself into the coffin in order to save the person that wanted to kill him. Two monsters, discarded by everyone, united together. And the whole thing with Basira liking the Hunt in Daisy, and becoming colder towards her when she was free of it? Delicious.
I read somewhere that Sasha was killed just because the voice actor had to leave for some reason. I don’t remember what it was tho. But I think it’s actually cool that the killing happened so soon - because of that I completely missed it and had the full Jon experience of him finding it out.
literally just saw your blog and thought hey, what the heck!
Personally I only have the capacity to hate one character, and that's Jonah Magnus (and even then I live how cunty he is for no reason lmao) so I'm just wondering what made you hate Martin in the first place?
That’s a good question!
Truth is, I didn’t really care about him before I got to season 5. He seemed like a typical shy sweet guy, and he didn’t bother me much. In season 4, when his whole “succumbing to the Lonely” thing started, I was curious as to where this was gonna lead. And then season 5 rolled around and all I got was a disappointment.
He’s still shy and anxious, but he also wants to take revenge on the people that wronged him, and that could’ve been quite alright with me if not for his utter lack of empathy towards his boyfriend. My main problem is not that it’s unrealistic - I’d actually say he’s written well and justified - but that it’s annoying. He’s petty and unempathetic and it gets on my nerves.
That’s probably because he didn’t mean much to me in the earlier seasons; most fans I see drooling over him already declared him beloved in season 1.
You’d think that spending so much time becoming an avatar of his own Martin would show some compassion towards Jon’s situation. But he berates the man for his new needs; off-handedly calls him a monster when he, too, is similar; and on two occasions he hits him because “he didn’t want to wait for Jon to finish his statement”. He describes himself as a carer yet fails to acknowledge the needs of the man closest to him. Which is what makes him realistic - those contradictions and flaws show his complexity - but it makes him annoying.
(I also don’t like that the narrative doesn’t paint their relationship as unhealthy, and because of that a great majority of fans skims over that aspect.)
My biggest issue is with Martin glazers tho. I cannot go a DAY without seeing something like “whoa Martin’s so sexy and awesome and such a good boyfriend!!! I would give him all the tea in the world!!!!” It’s also the same people who attack me for daring to have a different opinion.
In conclusion, he just gets on my nerves. I wouldn’t call myself a hardcore hater tho. I’m simply a humble fan of mister @martinblackwoodhater. He’s an inspiration to me, but im really just a guy. A separate entity. And since he hasnt posted any new hate in 3 days, i got bored and started formulating my own thoughts and opinions!! This is all organic babey!!
I feel like i could change my view of him tho. I’m biased now so i can’t churn out a new interpretation myself, but if any Martin fans want to engage in a discussion then please count me in!! I looove nuanced takes!!!
My best friend is very similar to Martin, similar appearance to the most common interpretation (like your pfp), and similar personality
What are your thoughts on them?
I don’t know? Mainly I have no idea what you mean.
I know a person like Martin myself - someone in a bad relationship with their mother, someone that likes to indulge in their sadness rather than try to improve their life, someone with an avoidant attachment style. I can’t always get through to them, and having them tell me of the same problem they’ve always had then turn down all of my attempts to help is kinda draining. But it’s not their fault.
The reason i dislike Martin isn’t because I think he’s a bad person, or that I think he’s abusive, but just because I find him annoying. He’s fictional - my role is not to solve his issues. I am only there to sit back and enjoy the story he’s in. And he pisses me off because he’s not my friend.
Ironic how one of TMA’s central narrative themes used to be about capitalism when it’s taken to its ugliest degree by parasitic people in power, yet, Rusty Quill in someways, became the very thing they swore to destroy when it comes to soulless corporate pandering of their own. I guess, they’re going to milk the only thing that keeps them relevant at this point even if TMA becomes a zombie wishing for someone to put it down. I don’t care about Martin stupid British tea party. Let TMA die.
Martin’s so caught up in his self-loathing that anytime he manages to pin down a genuine flaw of his, he brushes it off as irrational and overexaggerated. Like yeah man I’m glad you realized your own issues in MAG 186! Now you can try and work on yourself! But nooo of course it’s just the depression talking and also you’re totally perfect and cool and sexy and you deserve to be rude to people just because you can!! Being mean to your boyfriend for things out of his control really showcases your growth as a person!!
Honestly would go crazy cause they’re both hypocrites. They would be together for maybe a week and then they would break up by saying “this relationship is not good for me…. i need some time to think and reflect….” and just fuck off into distance and never speak to each other again
i feel like so many people are kinda missing out on one of the takeaways from MAG200 (spoilers!!) because people tend to water martin’s character down. he and jon both believe that the ends can justify the means, and thats one of their central arguments in 199, because fundamentally they have the same values. and up until then, they’re main conflicts with each other was over which actions to take, though they both agreed action was in order. jon believes that the ‘end’, a universe where the fears have died, is justified by the 'means’, killing everyone on earth and forcing everyone to remain in fear domains. martin was on board with their freedom fight at first, having reservations that jon shared, but still choosing to spare people or command jon to kill them whenever he saw fit. as much as he sheugged off making his own decisions, he still chose to combat avatars and even ally with annabelle. throughout s5, we see him prove again and again that the end, presumably killing elias and ending the apocalypse, will be worth allowing people to suffer in the meantime. but when jon is included in the suffering people category, martin cant include that in his world view.
that is the major distinction in their philosophies- the value they place on jon’s life and the amount they each blame him. jon blames himself for everything, and from the beginning he has allowed himself to be put in danger and risk his life. initially, he doesnt want to die, but as s4 progresses, we see him grapple with valuing his life as he recognizes hes becoming less “human”- in the coffin, he even makes the gamble that he’ll did there. martin also has very low self worth, but holds jon on a pedestal (he always did), and once the ends can only be achieved through the means of killing jon or watching him suffer, martin struggles to fit that into his black and white philosophy.
it isnt that martin or jon are “weak” or have deeply contrasting world views, but they are unable to agree which exact actions are inexcusable, as murder never seemed to be an issue until it was martin holding the knife.
This is actually honestly why I’ve never liked Martin’s character or maybe that’s just coming from my incredibly logical analytical style
Something about the way Martin is always just taking care of Jon in ways that -for lack of a better term- ways that would make Martin feel better just makes me uncomfy. Jon needs a certain type of support that Martin just isn’t seeing or catering to.
Jon has gone through basically four seasons essentially on his own. Yeah there are a few heartwarming events in between but I feel like Martin is usually pretty quick to only see things from his own perspective or shut Jon out when he has an idea that Martin doesn’t agree with (Idk, maybe it’s my aromantic ass coming in but that whole scene where he would literally doom another dimension to go through what they did… because he loves his boyfriend too much seems kinda dense to me but I digress). Jon needs someone to really understand him and provide him validation for what he has had to deal with. Unlike what Martin does which is basically tell him ‘Yeah but I think that was stupid so your perspective isn’t important.
Thinking about how Martin’s so silly with his all being surprised about Jon, when the whole 198, 199, and 200 Jon is definitely using his “I feel guilty, time to sacrifice myself to save the world” voice like. Of course Jon was going to eschew the plan and sacrifice himself anyway. Of course. That’s why he apologized sincerely to all of them in the hallway after they make their plan. He knows he will betray them all one last time.
Thinking about how none of the other survivors really understand Jon. How none of them realize that deep down just how used Jon feels. He didn’t want to end the world, Jonah Magnus laid the groundwork for him as a child. It was inevitable, and Jon could do nothing about it. The description in 199 he gives to Martin of how it felt to read the words… even Martin when he was being led astray by Peter wasn’t quite this violently used.
Thinking about how it’s eerily similar, the guilt Jon has, to how someone feels after a sexual assault. That horrible inability to escape it. That it happened to you, and you could do nothing about it, and you just have to keep living with that body. And it’s tragic that no one took the time to understand how hurt he was over it all. They all had their preconceived visions of what Jon was and missed the core of Jon’s hurt and that’s why the series had to end like this. Because Jon needed to take his power back and this was the only way he knew how.
Thinking about how Basira and Melanie and Georgie and even Martin in those final moments talk about “we all make mistakes” but Jon didn’t make mistakes he was used and this distinction is so critical and they all miss it and god it kills me to hear him. He’s really just a shell of himself through most of S5 but particularly so in those last few episodes leading up to 200. That intro scene is the most fire Jon’s had since…. since the coma really.
Thinking about how when Martin throws out another “how much of you is even left now” its such a horrible take because it just makes Jon into this ‘other’ thing… like is Martin even in love with Jon? The eye is in him, sure, but Jon didn’t change or become different. The fears have always been marking him, using him for their own ends, that’s why Jonah picked Jon in the first place. How Jon’s truly been used by all the fears (which he has) so of course Jon isn’t going to come out of this okay.
Thinking about the slight wavering crack in Jon’s voice, even as the Eye takes hold of him, trying to convince Martin “It’s still me, I’m still Jon” trying desperately to believe it himself. And the reality is that he is still Jon. This is always who Jon has been - someone on the edge of monstrous, and when you’re standing on the edge all it takes is a push to fall.
Thinking about this interaction between Georgie and Jon from the episode ‘Infectious Doubts’… cause what the fuck is this???
“I came in here thinking you were Melanie,” versus “I could hear you talking about The Horrors, freak.”
Takes me the fuck out. Make the inconsistency make sense, fuckers, I dare you. Like. Seriously. Was she chill thinking Melanie was just sitting there listening back to the tapes? Cause I feel like she’d know the difference in a playback to someone speaking out loud. And with that being the case why did Jon being there shock her? This entire exchange is fucking with me. Feels like I’m on acid. Like I’m seeing things no one else is.
Can I share my opinion?
I think it makes sense and this whole thing was pretty much in Georgie’s character.
I think after abandoning Jon at the hospital and telling him, basically, “Screw you, I don’t want to do anything with you and I’d rather you died, but essentially idgf”, she came back to check on him, out of guilt or curiousity or residual desire to help - I don’t know, but it certainly backfired. I think she also stood there behind the door for some time, listening, knowing perfectly well that it was Jon’s office and Melanie was in another part of the building. But she covered it with a pretense “I was searching for Melanie” because she’d thrown Jon out of her life and it would be weird if she came to check on him, and I think she knew that. She also didn’t WANT him back in her life.
So, she came back to see Jon only to tell him “Screw you, I don’t want to do anything with you, idgaf” AGAIN, the second time, and frankly, to me it seems like mockery, like she was intentionally rubbing his face in the fact that he was alone. I don’t think she intended to mock him and rub it in his face, I think there was a part of her that felt guilt over how she left him and wished to know how he was going and it was her initial intent, but it certainly did came as mockery. She did go into his office intentionally, she made it seem like she cared, only for her to tell him “No.” And not only this, but Georgie also quite deliberately went to Martin and told him “Hey, you should abandon Jon too.” And I think when she went to Martin she also lied and pretended that she was just waiting around for Melanie?
She had no right to do any of those things. She had no right to come see Jon and ask him how things were going after she made it clear she didn’t want him in her life, she had no right to tell him she didn’t want him in her life AGAIN, after SHE decided to come see him, and above all else, she had no right to contact Martin and tell him how Jon is all bad, beyond help, everything is his fault and Martin should abandon Jon too because Jon “would only drag him down”.
Hey. Anyone is welcomed to share an opinion. I’m not some monarch you need to ask permission to speak to.
Now. Okay. So. I’m going to be completely honest. The whole time I was picturing this scene to be like. A situation where a writer walks away from their work for a while and forgets what they wrote, continuing and getting too far to see the inconsistencies. Cause when you listen to it, unless Georgie is a REALLY good actor, she does sound like she was surprised to hear him. And she wasn’t lying about meeting with Melanie. That time with Martin? Melanie shows up right after. So, whatever else? She didn’t lie about that.
So. Essentially. I was looking at it not really questioning the content? I was looking at it and questioning that she said two things that directly contradict each other.
I didn’t think that the contradiction was the point.
Cause yeah. You’re right about it all. She absolutely was checking in on him despite telling him to his face she never wanted to see him again. She absolutely was checking in to continue judging and berating him. She absolutely was checking in and stumbled into a situation where she could ‘warn’ someone about him. She was absolutely doing all that with zero self awareness or reflection.
We can see what she was doing. We can see the truth behind her actions. No matter how much she believed she wasn’t doing harm and that she was acting in her AND HIS best interests, a different story is being told.
There’s a point where a narrative doesn’t match the text and it’s being told that Georgie was making her own decisions based on a genuine desire to help and out of ignorance of the situation, that she realizes this at the eleventh hour and takes responsibility for it, and there being zero evidence to back any of it up. And I’m sick of being told otherwise.
I didn’t want Georgie to supplicate herself. I didn’t want Georgie to help Jon. I didn’t want ANY of them to help Jon. Their ‘help’ was the problem. I wanted her to go away and stay away. At least then she would’ve actually been telling the goddamn truth.
Can someone who likes Martin pleeease tell me their reasoning? I’m trying to look at the man from a different perspective but most of the content I’ve seen involving him either boils down to “he’s such a precious cinnamon roll” or “he’s a sexy murderous badass”. I need some (positive) analysis im begging (I already analyzed him in negative light)
What do you think of the fears writting? I'm relistening to TMA and just emded season four, and one thing that bothered me most on this second listen are them and the statements. There are some decisions taken that I just don't understand, and the underuse of some of the fears is annoying. I know you focus more on characters and relationships but I would like to read your thoughts on this.
I don’t really have any strong opinions on the Fears, so I’m going to go through some of them and figure it out in the process. Excuse me if I miss something mentioned in canon; I’m basing this on what I can personally remember.
Let’s start with The Eye. It’s mainly presented as the fear of being watched, of someone or something observing you from the shadows. Since it’s the main focus of our story, I feel like it got covered pretty well.
I do wish that there had been more of the knowing aspect of it. It’s not only the fear of being watched, but also the fear of being under constant scrutiny. Of having each and every little thing you do laid out bare for the world to see. Of being exposed and unable to hide from the judgment. Most of the eye-centric statements only cover the watching part, with the eye symbolism and all.
Moving on to The Web. It’s said to be mainly arachnophobia and the fear of not being in control of your own actions. Leaning more into the manipulation part, The Web seems to focus more on the physical aspect of that manipulation, omitting the mental one.
There’s plenty of statements involving manipulation of the body, but none that I can think of which involve manipulation of the mind. It was present in The Web leading Jon throughout his entire life, sure, but the statements involving it focus too much on spiders and puppetry in my opinion. The scary part of manipulation is realizing you’ve been oblivious to it.
Next one is The Lonely, andthis is where I’m gonna get kinda mean. This Fear seems to be not one of loneliness as the name would suggest, but instead it involves mainly just being alone with some additions. It’s made to be a very personal fear, unique to each victim.
While fear of loneliness is a perfectly human thing, connected with us being social creatures, the canon makes it more into the fear of being alone and forgotten (plus fog for the aesthetics). While such a perception of it makes perfect sense, it seems almost too little to make it into a full-fledged Fear (as in a Force with Rituals and stuff). The whole thing with Lonely as canon describes it is that it would work just as well as an aspect of the other fears, like The Stranger or The Vast. Fears bleed into eachother, I know, but a lot of The Lonely-centric episodes are veeery similar. It feels like The Lonely wasn’t supposed to be a major part of the podcast at first, and was made into this “complex” thing just so Martin could be tossed into it. (From what I gather, he was written as a Web avatar but the writers changed their minds along the way).
In my opinion the canon covers it too much. The Lonely statements all feel more or less similar, it’s just the flavor of it that differs but the basis is the same. It’s not that it’s not written well, it just feels dragged out somehow. And no, I’m not talking about similarity as in the symbols the Fears are associated with; I’m saying the entire structure of those statements describes essentially the same thing, just different variations.
There’s also a big problem with the previously mentioned three becoming the narrative’s darlings in the later seasons, causing all the other fears to be pushed aside and only truly be present in the form of their corresponding avatars or the statements beamed into Jon’s mind without any significance to them. LAAAME!!
Now for The Dark. It’s supposedly the antithesis of The Eye, covering not only the fear of not being able to see, but also the fear of not knowing what lies in the darkness. Going with the antithesis thing, I wish there were more about it being the fear of being deprived of information, of being in the dark(haha). This also fits in with The Stranger, but still.
I kiiinda have a problem with The Distortion. It’s a fear of not being able to trust your own senses, of not being able to trust your surroundings. The canon focuses more on the aesthetics, with the actual essence of the fear being rarely present. I can only recall father Edwin Burrows’s statement as really doing it justice, but other than that the manipulation aspect is only ever revealed by Helen in conversation with Jon in s5. Also the whole “I want to be your friend” “I want to help” thing with earlyMichael.
I also have some issues with The Desolation’s portrayal. Gerry calls it “the fear of pain, fear of loss, fear of unthinking or cruel destruction.” The Desolation statements mostly involve the “oooo spooky fire!!” part. The loss it involves is more of an undertone to the “terrible fire” part.
To sum up, in my opinion a lot of the Fears just explore the aesthetic which they’ve been assigned - spider webs, eye imagery, fog, fire, sky, yellow door etc.
I understand that it is difficult to add character to a literal feeling, and that those associations make the Fears more recognizable, but sometimes it feels like the writers made those themes and just ran with them. I am also aware of the amount of detail that had to be fit into the podcast, and the fact it all needed to work together as a whole. But I’m still a bit bitter thinking of all the wasted potential.
