I think making the choices Jon and Martin made regarding the end of the end of the world out to be just about the other is extremely reductive.
Martin didn’t go with the Webs plan because it would ‘keep Jon with him.’ He went with the Webs plan cause it would cause the least amount of suffering. The ‘cosmic scale’ of human suffering he would have to ‘live with’ was HYPOTHETICAL. It wasn’t real. Not to him or the others. Saying that him wanting to stop the suffering of the people who, to him, ACTUALLY exist, was a byproduct of him wanting to ‘keep Jon with him’ is ignoring that even if Martin doesn’t care about others he still will do what he thinks to save them. Or buy enough time for someone else to. Why the FUCK are you making me DEFEND HIM. I fucking hate you.
On Jon’s end. Why do you think, if any of the others had gone up to stop him, that he wouldn’t do the exact same thing for them? Especially Georgie. I can understand not considering them cause they would leave his ass the moment the Panopticon went up, but let’s present a hypothetical. Say Georgie decided to stay or whatever. Convince him to try and release the fears. Whatever. Do you really think he would be fine and watch her burn with him? He was killing the world for hypotheticals. Would that not change when seeing the reality of it in front of him? With even some random person off the street? We can’t know the answer, but if you think he wouldn’t, you don’t know Jon at all.
Anyway. Convictions are for people not being tortured.
Placing all the weight of their choices when it comes to the suffering around them onto the other is reducing them to that relationship, ignoring their autonomy, and I hate you for it.
Geniunely don't understand why Martin is so popular. I read so many text posts and all that good bullshit and I still don't get it. God the amount of relistens I did and the only interest character traits are in s5 and done poorly and for the bit. He could have been alot don't get me wrong. But he wasn't.
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Completely understandable opinion. I don’t like him too much either, for some unknown reason. I can’t seem to figure it out. Maybe it’s just his relationship with his mom that seems familiar to me and it has made me despise hearing his voice. Yes! I’d actually loved to see him done better too, that is not to say that Jonny’s writing is bad, it’s one of the best things I’ve ever heard. I’m just… Curious about what Web!Martin would have been like maybe. Or even better… Other ideas! I know that the fandom is certainly creative enough. Very sweet, amazing, lovely people. I love all of you guys/p I’m pretty sure there are many things explored by the fandom that I haven’t even begun to thought of yet. I like hearing you guys tell me your tma thoughts so much <3
I feel like Martin could’ve been a really interesting character in tma but so much of the content about him is about jmart and being like “oh he’s so nice!”. Character who should be put on a high up shelf for a tiny bit while the fandom considers it a little maybe. He has a bunch of moments I really liked but I’m not a huge fan of the interpretations most people have.
Sorry. This is a semimonthly post at this point, but I’m still not over the fact that a story that could’ve been a fascinating exploration of how people react to fear in vastly different ways, shifting blames or clinging to normalcy or stepping over everyone else trying to claw their ways into some semblance of control, ended up doing barely anything with those themes for the sake of, uh, cute podcast gays, I guess.
You know I do like the TMA we got, it was pretty alright if definitely imperfect.
…But yeah. To be honest I am far more interested in the idea of what it would mean to 1. Live in a world where the Fears exist and 2. The implications of what being an avatar might mean, the questions of what makes a human being human and how different are “humans” and “monsters” anyway. (One of my favorite things in this series is actually how Elias refuses to define what being human means, which I find just. So interesting. But that’s a different post lol.)
I mean I get why people would like JonMartin, but to me shipping Jon with anyone, especially after S3, is almost necessarily toxic. My problem is that the “cute podcast gays” everyone sees don’t seem to really exist - they’re trauma-bonded to each other in a way that is honestly distinctly unhealthy no matter how much it’s dressed up with good cows.
Anyway. I would have liked less (at least blatant) romance and more focus on the worldbuilding implications here. It would have helped the later seasons especially IMO.
I like Jmart and Jonelias but I’ve recently gotten into JonGerry.
Martin is capable of loving Jon at his most human, which is good for tragedy and angst.
Elias is capable of loving Jon at his most monstrous, which is good for dark romance.
But it’s so easy to imagine Gerry, someone who grew up in the heart of the supernatural world while balancing inhumanity with humanity, as someone capable of loving both sides of Jon. No. 1 comfort ship right here.
in the same way as positioning jm as a healthy and happy couple is annoying, claiming they’re a pinnacle of “toxic yaoi” or whatever is annoying. no, they’re not. they’re simply not that interesting
there is a conversation to be had about their relationship in s4-5 specifically. how they stick with each other just to have some illusion of normalcy (which is especially important to Jon) despite not knowing each other all that well. how Martin treats him in s5 – belittling and dehumanizing him, laughing at him, enjoying his newfound powers, and then blaming Jon for enjoying it too. kinda fucked up! but the reason why I don’t find them very appealing to me (despite very much enjoying fucked up relationships) is that 1) they have no underlying chemistry that would make their suffering count, 2) all of that is not really a conversion on its own, it’s more of a specific example of how Jon’s monstrousness is being treated by most people, if that makes sense? like, Martin is not special for blaming Jon for being an avatar. almost everyone does that. the only thing that sets Martin aside from everyone else is that he is in a romantic relationship with Jon, and therefore, he feels like he has the right to treat Jon like his unruly pet. the fandom has picked up on it too, whether they know it or not – their relationship is often seen as Jon’s only redeeming, “human” quality (which is why there are so many “love makes you human” takes). how very brave Martin is for taking it upon himself to tame this morally inferior beast that Jon has become! (though, to be honest, Jon is being infantilised even in early-seasons depictions of him. and again, Martin is the only person actually capable of fixing him, of course)
it’s just an extrapolated version of what Jon has been hearing for seasons now. it’s a case study of how people treat him. but, again, it’s not very unique. there are people who have far more interesting relationships with Jon’s non-humanness – from Daisy and Helen to, of course, Elias
It’s really odd to me that in s5 the canon doesn’t really utilize the fact that Martin is also an avatar. He got tossed into the Lonely, got marked by it, got his own domain in the eyepocalypse, but that was it! The rest of the time he’s just hiking through the Fearscape. Feels like wasted potential to me.
Especially since this fact could be used for further jmart bonding. Sharing their experiences of feeding the Fears etc. But the narrative made Martin completely unaffected by his avatarhood, just so he could be that oh so necessary anchor for Jon’s humanity. They should’ve both gotten a bit more monstrous. It would’ve made them worse but also infinitely more delicious.
Martin pisses me the hell off. He should've stayed in The Lonely. At least then we wouldn't have to hear him wallowing in his sadness. "I'm so lonely.... No one really knows me..... I guess i deserve it...... I should've been nicer to my mum even tho she despised me..... that would've fixed everything for sure...... also Jon is a monster now and i don't like him" (literally him in mag 186).
He simultaneously hates himself and is an egoist and it wouldn't even be that bad if he wasn't such a mean CUNT!!!! "Oh yes king pop off! Martin deserves to be mean!!!" Yeah and he also deserves to take responsibility for that. But i guess he's the narrative's special little boy who can do no wrong, and so he is never held responsible and NO ONE calls him out on that because he's not a helpless cruel monster like Jon and hes such a supportive boyfriend because he makes tea and looks at cows or whatever. Kiss my ass.
And all fan content regarding martin depicts him like hes a fucking saint. Someone kick that man in the stomach and kidnap him a couple times and maybe then he would gain some sympathy for his boyfriend and would stop acying like hes better than him bc "he's morally correct" and "not a slave to his urges". Bffr
ive seen your jmart hate and analysis (and i think its starting to sway me), so i ask you… how do you feel about jon/gerry ?? ik they only have one episode together but even then (to me) their chemistry was so good, plus how gerry seems to be FAR. more accepting of jon’s avatarhood than martin in s5. for example when gerry asks “do you like it?” in reference to Compelling people and his role as archivist and jon replies “i suppose i do,” gerry doesnt seem phased at all. he rolls with it. and dont even get me started on jon promising to burn his page.
also if you dislike jon/gerry i wont attack <3 im just a big fan of them hoping to discuss . if you dont like them, who do you ship jon with (if anyone)?
Ooooohhhh. JonGerry. JonGerry my beloved. Imo best Jon ship cause they fit together so perfectly.
Gerry is almost a polar opposite to Martin (especially concerning their respective relationships with Jon). He was practically raised among the Fears. They’re his reality. His entire life was dedicated to them - from tracking down Leitners and disrupting the rituals with Gertrude, to being Eye-aligned himself. He is painfully aware of the Fears’ impact on the world, and, more importantly, the people around him.
He and Jon would work really well together, both as friends and as partners, because when it comes to it they’re quite similar.
Both Jon and Gerry were used by others for nearly the entirety of their lives. Jon was a puppet of the Web since he was a little kid, being subtly nudged and poked so that eventually he would become the Archivist and doom the world; he was also manipulated by Elias during his time in the Institute. Gerry was a tool for his mother; being isolated from his peers because of his upbringing, he had no choice but to become involved in her work. He hunted down Leitners, at first for her, and, when he realized the degree of Mary’s selfishness, he begun to seek them out in order to destroy them. Later, when he met Gertrude and started working at the Institute, once again he became the assistant; and while Gertrude was significantly kinder to him than Mary, he still ended up getting used and discarded.
Gerry hated his mother for her obsession with the Leitners, but couldn’t run away from her because she raised him in the knowledge of the Fears. Because of that no other person could understand him or his point of view, so he had no choice but to stay. Jon grows to hate Elias because he’s the one who (indirectly) caused him to become a monster, and yet Jon still would turn to him for help and advice because only Elias ever truly understood him.
Gerry would be much more accepting of Jon’s avatarhood because he himself had a very similar experience, and thus he’d be capable of understanding him, sympathizing with him, and not just call him a cruel monster like most of the cast. He would be able to understand Jon at his worst, and thus be capable of appreciating him at his best. Other people see Jon’s human side as the only part that’s truly “him” (“How much of you is even left now?” - The Jon that Martin is in love with and Avatar Jon are regarded as two different people), but Gerry would actually have knowledge of how the Fears work. He would be aware of how much the “human” Jon and “avatar” Jon are intertwined. He would see Jon as a whole. He wouldn’t divide the man into “pre-avatar” and “post-avatar” categories, because he knows it doesn’t work like that. He knows that it wasn’t Jon’s fault he became an avatar, and wouldn’t blame him for it.
To summarize I think they’re perfect for eachother. They get eachother so well ughhh. Can’t really say much about their interaction because I don’t remember it that well, but I recall it being significantly smoother than whatever Jon had going on with Martin.
Hi I know some people struggle with listening comprehension and would like to recommend the transcripts for TMA!! :) They're really well put together and I think they'd help you with mischaracterization and stuff
ive actually comprehended it already just fine thanks!!!!
there’s just no way you’re not being deliberately condescending here. babe i just don’t think you should go around talking to people like they’re lowkey stupid it won’t make you very liked. it’s not miscommunication to say that Martin’s a shit boyfriend when he spends all of s5 belittling and bullying and hitting Jon. like that’s abusive and if you can see that then maybe you need your eyes checked mate. or maybe your brain.
Liking a character has NOTHING to do with comprehension of said character. You can analyze the man inside and out and still hate him because thats YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and everyone is entitled to one 😋 someone is just mad that you like petty hating!!
Ok it seems rude to ask if you've already done it but I, like, Cannot find it so: could you please give your analysis on martin/ Jmart? I diluted myself with fanfiction (some of which addresses the problems that are there) but I'm restarting TMA and I like him less this time around but I can't put my finger on why (?) And that frustrates me but it helps to hear others organized opinions on it
Thank you
If you typed “anti jmart” and “martin blackwood critical” into the little search bar above my blog I think you would be able to find those just fine
I’ve just realized what bugs me the most when I’m comparing canon and fanon Martin. It’s the fact that in canon he never really changed.
I’ve said this before, but right now it really hit me. The Martin we see in early seasons is exactly the same Martin we see in season 5. He had always been like this.
I feel like the reason people talk about his “change” in season 5 is because up to that moment we’ve mainly heard Martin interacting with Jon, the man he had a crush on. Of course he’s gonna be stuttering and awkward! But when talking with Tim for example, Martin is his usual self - unless Jon is mentioned, of course.
Also there was this whole thing with the Lonely, where he got depressed and isolated himself from everyone. But for some reason it wasn’t a catalyst for his character development - when he got out of it, when he got out of the Lonely, he stayed the same as before. He just gained some self-awareness.
Season 5 Martin acts this way because at that point he has an idea of what’s happening and isn’t so anxious about his surroundings anymore, and, like every person that’s not being absolutely crushed by guilt at that time (Jon), his main objective is to get revenge for all the suffering he had to go through. Every other person from the archive crew would’ve done the same if they were in his position.
And there’s also the matter of him falling out of love with Jon / starting to see him more as a weapon, a monster, or just “his boyfriend” rather than a person.
ive seen your jmart hate and analysis (and i think its starting to sway me), so i ask you… how do you feel about jon/gerry ?? ik they only have one episode together but even then (to me) their chemistry was so good, plus how gerry seems to be FAR. more accepting of jon’s avatarhood than martin in s5. for example when gerry asks “do you like it?” in reference to Compelling people and his role as archivist and jon replies “i suppose i do,” gerry doesnt seem phased at all. he rolls with it. and dont even get me started on jon promising to burn his page.
also if you dislike jon/gerry i wont attack <3 im just a big fan of them hoping to discuss . if you dont like them, who do you ship jon with (if anyone)?
Ooooohhhh. JonGerry. JonGerry my beloved. Imo best Jon ship cause they fit together so perfectly.
Gerry is almost a polar opposite to Martin (especially concerning their respective relationships with Jon). He was practically raised among the Fears. They’re his reality. His entire life was dedicated to them - from tracking down Leitners and disrupting the rituals with Gertrude, to being Eye-aligned himself. He is painfully aware of the Fears’ impact on the world, and, more importantly, the people around him.
He and Jon would work really well together, both as friends and as partners, because when it comes to it they’re quite similar.
Both Jon and Gerry were used by others for nearly the entirety of their lives. Jon was a puppet of the Web since he was a little kid, being subtly nudged and poked so that eventually he would become the Archivist and doom the world; he was also manipulated by Elias during his time in the Institute. Gerry was a tool for his mother; being isolated from his peers because of his upbringing, he had no choice but to become involved in her work. He hunted down Leitners, at first for her, and, when he realized the degree of Mary’s selfishness, he begun to seek them out in order to destroy them. Later, when he met Gertrude and started working at the Institute, once again he became the assistant; and while Gertrude was significantly kinder to him than Mary, he still ended up getting used and discarded.
Gerry hated his mother for her obsession with the Leitners, but couldn’t run away from her because she raised him in the knowledge of the Fears. Because of that no other person could understand him or his point of view, so he had no choice but to stay. Jon grows to hate Elias because he’s the one who (indirectly) caused him to become a monster, and yet Jon still would turn to him for help and advice because only Elias ever truly understood him.
Gerry would be much more accepting of Jon’s avatarhood because he himself had a very similar experience, and thus he’d be capable of understanding him, sympathizing with him, and not just call him a cruel monster like most of the cast. He would be able to understand Jon at his worst, and thus be capable of appreciating him at his best. Other people see Jon’s human side as the only part that’s truly “him” (“How much of you is even left now?” - The Jon that Martin is in love with and Avatar Jon are regarded as two different people), but Gerry would actually have knowledge of how the Fears work. He would be aware of how much the “human” Jon and “avatar” Jon are intertwined. He would see Jon as a whole. He wouldn’t divide the man into “pre-avatar” and “post-avatar” categories, because he knows it doesn’t work like that. He knows that it wasn’t Jon’s fault he became an avatar, and wouldn’t blame him for it.
To summarize I think they’re perfect for eachother. They get eachother so well ughhh. Can’t really say much about their interaction because I don’t remember it that well, but I recall it being significantly smoother than whatever Jon had going on with Martin.
Since I’ve already discussed the topic of JonGerry, obviously i have to mention JonGerryMartin as well. And, precisely, i need to say why i don’t like this ship.
As I’ve said, Jon and Gerry would work together well because they have a lot in common and would understand eachother. But i cannot fathom why would you want to add Martin to the mix. (not counting the fans that just see it as an extension of jmart)
First of all, Martin and Gerry are practically opposites, especially when it comes to their morals and worldviews. Martin is critical of the Fears and sees avatars as monsters. Gerry on the other hand sees the Fears as much more complex, because he was raised in the knowledge of them.
From what I’ve gathered listening to Jon-Martin interactions in s5, i have reasons to believe that Martin wouldn’t be interested in learning about the Fears, as he actively isolates himself from topics that upset him. The only basis for a Gerry-Martin bond that i can see is their difficult relationships with their mothers. Admittedly, that’s a pretty solid basis for a friendship or just a connection in general. But aside from that, there’s nothing else that Gerry and Martin have in common. Plus there’s this whole jealousy thing on Martin’s side, that would either cause him to try and isolate Jon from any other relationship not involving himself, or he would just stop talking to Jon entirely because “he’s better off without me… he and Gerry get on so well.. i should just leave…”
What I’m saying is, in order for this ship to work out somehow, you’d need to rewrite at least one character completely. It’s like trying to ship Elias with Jude Perry - i cannot think of a single scenario in which this would work out.
Forever mad at the sudden 180 degree turn that TMA did in season 5. It went from “the world is ruled by cruelty that you cannot fully comprehend or fight against, you can only watch” to “actually if you love someone hard enough it makes you Good and Human!”
Recently I’ve been trying to pin down the precise reason why I don’t like Martin Blackwood (aside from the fact i find him annoying) and I think I’ve come to a realization of sorts.
It’s not that I think he’s badly written. I dislike him because there’s nothing unique to him.
Recently I’ve been trying to pin down the precise reason why I don’t like Martin Blackwood (aside from the fact i find him annoying) and I think I’ve come to a realization of sorts.
It’s not that I think he’s badly written. (As I’ve stated in my previous posts, in my opinion he’s quite well portrayed; by that i mean he makes the decisions i think a person like him would make. While his actions aren’t often “the best” or however you want to phrase it, they can be understood if you tried to look at them from his point of view).
I dislike him because there’s nothing unique to him.
Let me put it this way. He’s a shy guy with an embarrassing crush, family issues and depression. He also expresses himself in that cartoonish manner usually associated with bubbly, insecure characters. But he doesn’t tell a unique story.
If you didn’t already like him for his anxious personality, then his backstory (and development) don’t really give you any further reasons. He fits into the classic “shy character who’s actually smart and cunning” archetype. He likes all the stereotypical softie things - poetry, tea, idealized romance, cozy sweaters (that part might be fanon tho), he’s nice to animals and insects, and the whole revolutionary part about his character (that everyone praises him for) is that he’s actually manipulative and hides it well.
His whole character seems to be built on a mix of those softie traits and trauma. Even his Lonely arc is just a metaphor for heavy depression. He’s never affected by the horrors (beyond the impact it had on his mental condotion - duh) despite being the focus of a fear-apocalypse themed season.
Also it feels like his whole role, whatever it might’ve otherwise been, was changed in s5 to become an anchor for Jon to latch onto. His whole thing is that he’s “still human” and can pull Jon back whenever he’s being “too monstrous”. Which is WEIRD, because not a season earlier he became a full-fledged avatar of the Lonely, even if it was partially on his own terms. He doesn’t really feel like a hero of a horror fiction podcast, just an angsty queer romance. His biggest appeal is that he’s relatable.
whats your take on the theory that The Archivist as a an avatar serves not just the eye but also the web? i mean we know that the web is the "true mastermind" behind everything that happens in tma and that the tape recorders specifically are more of a web thing than an eye thing. but i always thought that the archivists power to make people tell them things instead of simply knowing them also has a webiness to it. thoughts?
I think the Archivist doesn’t serve the Web, he’s a victim of it. But you’re right, the compulsion thing kinda falls under the category of Web. On the other hand, it would be quite difficult to make a Fear whose manifestations are completely separate from eachother, so it may be a result of the Fears overlapping in some aspects.
The Archivist’s compulsion seems more about the fear of having your secrets forcibly revealed, rather than of manipulation itself.
The aspect you highlited points more to the similarity of The Web and The Eye as fears. All of the Fears bleed into eachother, but some are more like a “can’t truly exist without the other” thing. I think that’s the case here.
apologies if you've already discussed this, but thoughts on daisy/basira?
They’re neat. They have a very interesting dynamic and yet I rarely see anyone talking about them.
When working with Daisy, Basira noticed that the Hunt was consuming her. Or, more accurately, she took note of Daisy’s unnecessary killings, and did nothing about them. In fact, it was the Hunt-driven Daisy that she liked the most - strong and violent, enjoying her kills. In that way Basira is the complete opposite of Martin; while he liked only the “human” part of Jon, Basira preferred Daisy’s monstrous side.
When Daisy emerged from the coffin, weakened and no longer with a purpose, Basira treated her coldly. I feel like it was deliberate: we were told earlier that she is someone who can hide her emotions pretty well, and so not attempting to conceal her dismay might’ve been a conscious choice on her side.
After finding out about Jon’s feedings, while bashing and insulting the man she also protects Daisy, claiming that her Hunting “wasn’t the same”. Because she liked it. Because she liked Daisy being like this.
After the Eyepocalypse begun, Basira had already managed to admit to herself that she liked the power she had while working with the police. She also realized the reason for her feelings towards Daisy. Despite that, she kept the promise she made to Daisy and hunted her, killing her in the end. She turns down Daisy’s offer to join the Hunt, which both shows her growth as a character, and, in its own way, is kind of tragic.
All the jmart fanfics depicting them as fluffy domestic couples are baffling to me. I get that you want to see your favourite blorbos happy and healthy but you need to know it would take an abysmal amount of work for them to even come close to that.
This results in all of these fanfics warping the characters’ personalities so much that these aren’t even the same people anymore. They’re just reduced to traits like “grumpy but actually sensitive underneath” and “shy caring sweetie that’s also very understanding and supportive”. I get what you’re trying to achieve but at this point it feels like you’re writing about somebody else entirely
I don’t even know what it is about Martin, but I absolutely hate his guts. Like there’s nothing he’s explicitly done to warrant my hatred, but his vibes are just rancid.
He plays dumb and makes other people sympathize with him. He’s all like “I’m sorry 🥺👉👈 I’m trying my best, I just want to make you proud” you’re a grown man, stop acting so incompetent, don’t play the victim for normal criticism from your manager. (And yes, I’m talking about Jon. There is no way Jon decided to use Martin as his punching bag and yelled at him all the time, was he likely harsher than necessary? Probably, he was probably kinda rude and passive aggressive, but he definitely didn’t yell at Martin. You can tell how surprised Martin was when Jon yelled at him about Trevor Herbert, that was likely the first time Jon ever raised his voice at him.)
And here’s the thing, I feel like I should like him, I grew up having to be a caretaker for my mother, so I feel like I should be able to relate or understand him, but I just… don’t. In theory I can understand that Martin is manipulative because he had to be to his mother, I can understand that, but in practice, I cannot sympathize with him at all, and just kinda hate him.
Also he just feels very ableist to me, he gives off the impression of someone who always knows what’s best, would tell someone with depression to try not being sad, would tell a disabled person that they’re just not try hard enough, will always play the victim, especially if the other person is “mentally unstable” or something. (He’d be one of those caregivers that constantly demeans his patient, but everyone would call him so “strong” and “supportive” for dealing with them)
I always hate the interpretation of Martin that he’d be so great and caring and understanding to Jon, as if he wouldn’t 100% just tell Jon he’s not trying hard enough. I mean that’s half of season 5, just Martin telling Jon he’s not trying enough, not trying to help enough, not trying to be happy enough, not trying to be human enough. I’m pretty sure there’s not a single time that Martin tries to understand Jon and where he’s coming from. He’ll try to force Jon to say what he’s feeling, but he never actually cares to understand.
If Martin wasn’t doing his weird Lonely arc thing in season 4 he would have been right there beside Melanie and Basira telling Jon that “actually, all you have to do to overcome addiction is to stop being addicted. It’s not that hard.”
Anyways, sorry for such a long rant, also to be clear, it’s not as if I just sit around and gnash my teeth thinking about how much I hate him, I just wanted to get this off my chest. If you enjoy Martin as a character more power to you, I just can’t stand the guy.
YEA I DEF GET THIS Oh my god ok I. I like him. He fascinates me. He is a fucking cunt whos very bad at understanding how other ppl feel and thinks he knows best and this is SHOWN in s5. I like him a lot but goddamn he has FLAWS. SO MANY GOOD GOD. The fandom ignores it and it pisses me off so much bc theyre all so quick to make georgie jons horrible ex who didnt understand him for some reason WHEN NOTHING IN CANON SHOWS THAT BUT EVERYTHING SHOWS THAT MARTIN EASILY COULD FILL THAT ROLE. Sry anyways this is a frequent annoyance lol - rosette
It really upsets me that despite the fact that all the characters in tma are morally gray, the fandom is still trying to look at everything through the prism of black and white. This leads to a misinterpretation of the characters, their stories and motivations. I think it's mostly about Martin and Jonah. How the fandom sees the first one as innocent despite all his actions, and justifies frankly unhealthy behavior. And at the same time, Jonah is credited with all the sins of humanity (I won't be surprised if someone says that he once ate a baby lol) just because he is an antagonist. And I'm not saying that he never did anything wrong. But when fandom makes him a capitalist or a tory (or a r*pist, what??????), I start to wonder if we listened to the same podcast. Just... why?
I dislike most fanon portrayals of jmart, it seems too much woobified to me
By s5 Martin is stubborn, petty, condescending, blaming jon for things he can't control. S1 Jon was mean and emotionally constipated and by s5 he's full of guilt acting like a bit of a doormat with everyone because he convinced himself he deserves it. The more i relisten (esp s5 with so much jmart development) the more it's obvious that they are extremely terrible at communicating because they're both traumatized as shit and never had the chance to learn properly because yk, fear apocalypse and stuff, not a prime example of a healthy learning environment, but that often shows up in the form of not so healthy behaviors with each other. Understandable because the situation is horrible.
I like them that way. They're complex and feel more real. But then i go into the fandom and it's a bit... Eh? Ykwim? It's like they forgot about everything but the cute lovey dovey parts or the sad parts. I mean fair, fluff is nice especially after mag200 and we all love some good angst, but atp it's a majority of the fandom portrayal 😭 I can't engage too much with jmart content, because a lot of it feels wildly mischaracterized. It's a shame because their character and dynamic is really interesting to me
it kinda feels misogynistic the way you're always hating on martin (who is pretty much accepted in the fandom to be a trans man!) for inherently female characteristics and things afabs (people who are socialised as women) get mocked and insulted for throughout our entire lives
you genuinely cannot be real. there’s so much to unpack here i actually don’t even know where to start
Literally what. First of all it’s a HEADCANON so It’s not even true. Second of all you’re not hating him for being a feminine softie of whatever youre hating him for being an asshole!! Someone projected too hard onto Martin and they took it personally
honestly had they seriously wanted to explore the concept of free will in tma the web’s plan should have failed and jon should have carried his project through. there was an interesting discussion there to be had abt him choosing to damn his own world: was it out of his desire to save the universe? out of spite not to comply with the web’s demands? was the pull of the eye so strong that his actions were only partially his own? and yet.
Insane that Jon said the Eye was fond of Martin when that man is the single most ignorant person in the whole podcast. He straight up refuses to learn anything that makes him even slightly uncomfortable. Everything for the ship to seem cute ig!
Insane that Jon said the Eye was fond of Martin when that man is the single most ignorant person in the whole podcast. He straight up refuses to learn anything that makes him even slightly uncomfortable. Everything for the ship to seem cute ig!
I’m listening to mag151, when Martin has a conversation with Simon Fairchild, and dear god does the man piss me off. He sees everything in black and white like I’m sorry that Simon can’t just tell you there’s a big red button you need to push to stop the extinction but it doesn’t work like that. Maybe if you actually tried to listen to what the man has to say then you could draw some conclusions instead of just getting mad. I get that you’re stressed or whatever but you could at least make an effort to understand what you’re up against
Insane that Jon said the Eye was fond of Martin when that man is the single most ignorant person in the whole podcast. He straight up refuses to learn anything that makes him even slightly uncomfortable. Everything for the ship to seem cute ig!
I’m listening to mag151, when Martin has a conversation with Simon Fairchild, and dear god does the man piss me off. He sees everything in black and white like I’m sorry that Simon can’t just tell you there’s a big red button you need to push to stop the extinction but it doesn’t work like that. Maybe if you actually tried to listen to what the man has to say then you could draw some conclusions instead of just getting mad. I get that you’re stressed or whatever but you could at least make an effort to understand what you’re up against
“What about monsters?” Craaaazy. So the guys who do harm because some eldritch entities tell them to are Bad, but people who do harm of their own will are Good! Wow! What a great understanding of the world around you!
Insane that Jon said the Eye was fond of Martin when that man is the single most ignorant person in the whole podcast. He straight up refuses to learn anything that makes him even slightly uncomfortable. Everything for the ship to seem cute ig!
I’m listening to mag151, when Martin has a conversation with Simon Fairchild, and dear god does the man piss me off. He sees everything in black and white like I’m sorry that Simon can’t just tell you there’s a big red button you need to push to stop the extinction but it doesn’t work like that. Maybe if you actually tried to listen to what the man has to say then you could draw some conclusions instead of just getting mad. I get that you’re stressed or whatever but you could at least make an effort to understand what you’re up against
“What about monsters?” Craaaazy. So the guys who do harm because some eldritch entities tell them to are Bad, but people who do harm of their own will are Good! Wow! What a great understanding of the world around you!
Simon Fairchild is dropping insane one-liners and creative analogies and Martin is just there being mean as hell. If only it was Tim there instead of him… Tim would get it…
Insane that Jon said the Eye was fond of Martin when that man is the single most ignorant person in the whole podcast. He straight up refuses to learn anything that makes him even slightly uncomfortable. Everything for the ship to seem cute ig!
I’m listening to mag151, when Martin has a conversation with Simon Fairchild, and dear god does the man piss me off. He sees everything in black and white like I’m sorry that Simon can’t just tell you there’s a big red button you need to push to stop the extinction but it doesn’t work like that. Maybe if you actually tried to listen to what the man has to say then you could draw some conclusions instead of just getting mad. I get that you’re stressed or whatever but you could at least make an effort to understand what you’re up against
“What about monsters?” Craaaazy. So the guys who do harm because some eldritch entities tell them to are Bad, but people who do harm of their own will are Good! Wow! What a great understanding of the world around you!
Simon Fairchild is dropping insane one-liners and creative analogies and Martin is just there being mean as hell. If only it was Tim there instead of him… Tim would get it…
Basira is being so real for not trusting him and he’s deflecting as usual. What’s charming about that?
Martin “I’ve never heard you laugh” Blackwood and Jonathan “I’ve never heard you say anything funny” Sims. This post is about them having no chemistry; do not derail.
Only coming here to complain about M*rtin but. "Let's get our murder on" sounds so gross and tactless. i know it's the apocalypse but this is just an awful way to behave.
Martin is very black-and-white in his thinking and has been since the start, by which I mean back when he was well-written and I liked him. Sometimes that was a strength (spiders are environmentally important, so you cannot kill them; Jon is a good person, so Tim cannot accuse him), but more often than not, especially in later episodes, it is his greatest flaw.
The police are there to keep the peace, so how could they be criminals? Avatars are bad, so getting our murder on isn’t even a question. I don’t want my boyfriend to stop being my boyfriend, and I don’t want to die, so I won’t even consider his viewpoint with the fate of several realities at stake. Elias is my enemy, so anyone who isn’t his ally is probably my friend. Many more examples exist. I think this is one of his core traits and accounts for many occasions in which he doesn’t have patience for Jon’s attempts to explain very complex realities.
If you had, would you have told them? Would that have, have changed what happened?
Me when I’m so tactful about my partner’s self-victim-blaming and feelings of guilt: Would you have let them kill you to prevent this? Would you? Jon. Jon, would you have killed yourself for real?
inb4 anyone raises concerns over elias being “toxic” for jon the problem is that elias is “toxic” because he is sculpting a mortal man into a godshead for a ritual to birth the world anew. martin is toxic because he’s whiny, emotionally disregulated, and can’t even appreciate jon’s sense of humor in a pre-apocalyptic office setting. the problem is not whether je or jm would win at couple’s counceling. the problem is that jon is an avatar of the dread power that looms over the ruins of his former world, chief amongst its peers, and he’s playing house with a boring ex-coworker who he doesn’t even like.
@batemanscaped YES. GOD. the person i just reblogged who talked abt papercut theory nailed it. i have not personally been turned into a living idol of fear by a man who has devoted a dozen lifetimes to the pursuit. i have had shitty, clingy, manipulative partners who openly resented me. “lol”
they are sooooo similar like, their humor. their values. their interests. they have an established ease to the cadence of their conversations. i hate the prevalence of no fears aus lol BUT the only characters from the whole show who would maintain their existing relationship in a world w no fear entities would be jon and elias. also elias literally WORSHIPS jon he crafts him into the perfect image of their shared god. and before and beyond that, he just really likes the boy.
I have to say, jonelias is like the only ship I have where I don’t want to just ignore the canon relationship, I would be very happy if Jon left Martin for Elias
Actually I want to expand on this. According to paper cut theory, when reading fiction people tend to empathize with things that have happened to them or people they know over fantastic things, even if objectively the fantastic thing is way worse. So people will flinch watching a TV character get a paper cut, but probably won’t when that same character gets decapitated. I have not personally been turned into a fear monster by my boss before, but I have definitely known people like Martin.
I just get such a sense that Martin doesn’t actually like John, he likes some ideal of John he thought up when they met. He doesn’t understand John’s sense of humor, he doesn’t agree with his principles, every time they’re in the same room in s5 they seem to argue with each other. They have pretty much no common interests. Elias is an awful person in pretty much every regard, but at least he seems to like the John that actually exists.
The Eye being fond of Martin is really strange because it implies the Watcher has Jon’s wellbeing in mind.
This kind of reasoning contradicts everything we were told about the Fears before that. If Martin hadn’t been with him, wouldn’t Jon have given in to his urges more and therefore been more useful to the Eye? Why would a man that constantly bashes Jon’s avatarhood be in any way worthy of appreciation of an eldritch being that feeds on the very fear Jon extracts? This just doesn’t make sense.
This bit feels like it was tossed in to patch up the whole “the Fears won’t hurt you as long as you’re with me” thing. It’s just there to make the ship seem cute bc “the Eye approves of it! The Eye is a JMart shipper haha!”
The whole “ceaseless watcher’s special little boy” thing that people love so much misses the whole point the podcast made. It seems cute but the fans make it seem as the only reason Jon became an avatar - because the Eye liked him. And that takes away the tragism of his character. The fact that he did absolutely choose this path, even if it was unknowingly. The fact he would’ve always ended up as the Archivist because of the way he is.
The Eye being fond of Martin is really strange because it implies the Watcher has Jon’s wellbeing in mind.
This kind of reasoning contradicts everything we were told about the Fears before that. If Martin hadn’t been with him, wouldn’t Jon have given in to his urges more and therefore been more useful to the Eye? Why would a man that constantly bashes Jon’s avatarhood be in any way worthy of appreciation of an eldritch being that feeds on the very fear Jon extracts? This just doesn’t make sense.
This bit feels like it was tossed in to patch up the whole “the Fears won’t hurt you as long as you’re with me” thing. It’s just there to make the ship seem cute bc “the Eye approves of it! The Eye is a JMart shipper haha!”
The fears do whatever the fuck they want.
They shipped a gay gremlin middle child with Peter motherfucking lonely-ass Lukas.
They like DRAMA
First of all what are you even talking about. Second of all the Fears don’t “like drama” because they aren’t people. That’s their whole thing; they are incomprehensible and unpredictable, even to the very avatars who serve them. Why the hell would they need romance? What point are you trying to make here
Very few people realize how tragic post s5 jmart would actually be. Provided they really end up Somewhere Else, Jon possibly would’ve been freed from the Eye. He would be without the thing that made him the person he knew himself as. Having to find himself again. Not even knowing if he has the strength to do so.
Imagine how Martin would’ve reacted to that. At first he would be happy with it - after all, it’s the Beholding-less version of Jon that he grew attached to. But after some time he would realize how little of that Jon is actually left. How much of Jon’s very being was intertwined with the Eye, and is now lost forever. A part of your beloved is dead and you will never get it back, not as you had known him.
Still, that helpless Jon would be Martin’s favourite Jon. He could finally dedicate his time to taking care of him, just like he always wanted. His perfect little scenario of them living a domestic life could finally be realized.
The thing is, Jon doesn’t like being weak and helpless. He had always taken care of himself, and he can do it just fine. It’s mental support that he needs. Those “monsters” may be gone, but the Fears, their statements, the suffering - they all linger in his mind still.
But Martin has already left those events behind. He doesn’t want to go back to them, because why would you want to relive those awful moments? You’re fine now! Here, I’ll make you some tea. It will make you feel better. Just try to sit down and relax.
Very few people realize how tragic post s5 jmart would actually be. Provided they really end up Somewhere Else, Jon possibly would’ve been freed from the Eye. He would be without the thing that made him the person he knew himself as. Having to find himself again. Not even knowing if he has the strength to do so.
Imagine how Martin would’ve reacted to that. At first he would be happy with it - after all, it’s the Beholding-less version of Jon that he grew attached to. But after some time he would realize how little of that Jon is actually left. How much of Jon’s very being was intertwined with the Eye, and is now lost forever. A part of your beloved is dead and you will never get it back, not as you had known him.
Still, that helpless Jon would be Martin’s favourite Jon. He could finally dedicate his time to taking care of him, just like he always wanted. His perfect little scenario of them living a domestic life could finally be realized.
The thing is, Jon doesn’t like being weak and helpless. He had always taken care of himself, and he can do it just fine. It’s mental support that he needs. Those “monsters” may be gone, but the Fears, their statements, the suffering - they all linger in his mind still.
But Martin has already left those events behind. He doesn’t want to go back to them, because why would you want to relive those awful moments? You’re fine now! Here, I’ll make you some tea. It will make you feel better. Just try to sit down and relax.
Holy shit @chuckableimp you’re right. Jon and Martin living a mockery of a domestic life while guilt eats them both from inside out. Neither of them speak up about it, so as not to shatter the fragile illusion of normalcy they so painstakingly put together. Both of them terrified of what will happen once this facade falls apart. These bitches are destined to suffer no matter where they end up!!!!
Sometimes I mourn for the version of season 5 I thought I was going to hear. I loved the whole plotline of Jon trying to save Martin from the lonely. Because Jon felt responsible for him, and Martin was the only one of Jon's assistants left. and I was convinced I was going to see Jon realising that he actually didn't like Martin.
Because like. throughout the podcast Jon is continually choosing to try to get power and information in order to protect the people around him. He's willing to sacrifice his friendships, his safety, his humanity, because he cares, even for people who have tried to kill him. He tries to kill Not Sasha, someone he remembers being friends with, in order to protect the others. And then Martin gets offered the chance to kill Jonah Magnus and free all the employees and he turns it down because he's a person! and he wants to have friends!
and they're just so incompatible and I thought we'd get to see Jon wondering if it was worth it to save Martin, and all this delicious stuff. and the creators said they wouldn't make the relationship canon!
and then we got season 5 instead.
any thoughts?
Yeah. You covered basically everything I’ve been criticizing. Literally every single tma critical post I’ve made circles around these topics. (Under the cut bc I just learned how to make those)
Season 4 felt like a build-up to something huge. We got nearly all of the cast hating Jon for something completely out of his control. We got Martin trying to pull off a self-sacrifice. We got introduced to the Extinction, told that it was a terrible danger to everyone and that it had to be stopped. A lot of things were happening at once, and there was a looot of tension between the characters.
Then comes time for the big reveal, and it really was big. We found out what happened to Jonah Magnus and the real reason why the Institute was built. Martin also got to show that he’s not as weak and helpless as everyone thought.
Jon’s desperate attempt to pull Martin out of the Lonely was little more than that. By that point, Martin was literally the only person that didn’t outright despise Jon for becoming an Avatar, and that might be simply because he and Martin didn’t even talk once. Another reason for Jon’s lack of hesitation might be that he realized the crush Martin used to have on him, and so saving the man might’ve given him the hope of finding someone who’d treat him like a person, not a monster. All in all, it had less to do with romantic feelings, and more with desperation and the difficult situation Jon had found himself in.
There is no real build-up to them getting together. It’s just… one moment they’re in the Lonely, desperate to find one another, and a moment later they’re saying “I love you” and kissing eachother. When did that happen? And don’t say “well it was during the time they spent in the safehouse together!” Then why are they so painfully incompatible throughout season 5? Seriously, I get the whole “grasping at eachother for balance” thing, but was there really a need to make them a couple so soon? The build-up felt more like it would lead to a friendship, not outright romance - which is why their relationship felt so surface-level in the following season.
I completely missed the transition to the Safehouse on my first listen, and honestly I’m still not sure how it all happened. Jon and Martin’s conversations there seem light and at ease, but they have no real basis for a meaningful bond.
And yeah, there’s the issue with their contributions to their relationship being unequal. Jon is bending over backwards trying to accommodate Martin, leaving when he feels the need to make a statement, trying to explain everything as best as he can while carrying the weight of the world’s suffering on his shoulders. He’s not perfect, but it’s more than enough considering the situation they’re in.
But Martin? He’s selfish in his behaviour, even if it’s not outright visible. He refuses to listen to Jon talking about the fearscape because it makes him uncomfortable. He doesn’t try to look at the situation from Jon’s point of view - admittedly, that would’ve been very difficult, but he could’ve at least tried to show some support. He’s repulsed by Jon’s new needs, and, when they’re at Salesa’s, he laughs at Jon when he’s stripped of the Eye’s power. All of those behaviours are understandable of course, but it makes their relationship that ordinary kind of unhealthy; even tho they have their moments, ultimately they’re just two people staying together despite not getting on very well. It was spelled out for them by Peter Lukas:
(I’ve lost count of how many times I used this screenshot)
Peter was trying to upset Jon here of course. But that doesn’t change the fact it’s true. They just don’t have a basis for a meaningful relationship, because they barely even spoke. And yet they’re the focus of an entire season.
Yeah, yeah, it’s because of their circumstances, sure. But nearly every single fan looks at their relationship through rose-colored glasses. Better yet, I’ve seen people describe TMA as a “gay horror podcast” just because of jmart. And it’s infuriating, because their relationship gives us nothing. These two men talked for the first time in what? Months? And the writers decided “yeah we’ll make them boyfriends! This will be a hit with the gay fans for sure!” and then they wrote the blandest possible relationship they could’ve. It’s like your parents who constantly bicker yet don’t want to get a divorce. Just two coworkers in an apocalyptic world, and suddenly it’s “gay horror”.
Also they’re so obviously unhealthy, and yet the narrative just… ignores it. There aren’t any real consequences to their lack of compability, which is weird!! Really? No consequences? In MY inevitable consequences of your actions podcast?
Let’s talk abot Martin, because of course it all comes back to him. My main issue with the man is that he thinks in black and white. When the Avatars kill people it’s for their Patrons and out of their twisted desire, and so they’re bad and evil. When he kills people(through Jon), then it’s taking revenge on those monsters that hurt him, so it’s right, and it’s good. When Martin first witnessed Jon’s new “powers”, it’s him who came up with the idea of using it for revenge. And as long as it’s his initiative and Jon is only doing it for him, then it’s good and morally correct. But when he noticed Jon started to enjoy the killing, then suddenly it’s “wrong” and “not okay”, because “you weren’t supposed to enjoy it this much!” (Please be for real.) His perception of “right” and “wrong” is whatever is most convenient for him at that moment.
My other issue with Martin is that the Lonely barely even affected him. It was more like “heavy depression but make it Supernatural”. Season 4 started sculpting him into an interesting character, someone who’s ready to sacrifice himself yet cannot stand the thought of his friends getting hurt in the process. His whole Lonely arc gave him depth. He was focused. He had a plan. He made a decision and was ready to pull through with it.
But then he gets thrown into the Forsaken by Peter, and by the time Jon pulls him out, he’s exactly where he started. The same insufferable brand of nervousness and indecision and lack of understanding. Turned back into the nerd emoji. Like… the whole “Martin being an avatar of the Lonely” thing could serve as an explanation to the shallow nature of their relationship - it could be the Lonely pulling them further apart! Or Martin realizing he lost feelings for Jon and quietly distancing himself from the man! Delicious inescapable tragedy!
So yeah. There’s not a word said about their shitty bond, and it’s the main focus of the last season. Boring boring boring!!! The wonderful opportunity to make them both monstrous was MISSED!!! Of cooourse Martin is unaffected by the Lonely, it’s because he’s with Jon! Martin helps Jon regain his humanity! The Eye approves of their relationship!! Also the whole “you are my reason” part was, like, the easiest way to make Jon not suicidal, for which he had all the reasons imaginable. Thatman hated himself for being a monster, and everyone else hated him too!! Butnoo he’s with Martin now! The power of love cured him of depression! But not Martin tho, he deserves to wallow in his suffering, even though Jon had it just as bad if not worse. They had to divide them into “the one who’s a monster and losing himself” and “the one responsible for keeping the monster at a leash”. I apologize for the odd wording, i don’t know how else to phrase it.
Perfect opportunity to make fucked up monstrous tragic gays, and we got toxic teenage couple instead. The whole apocalyptic setting was TERRIFYINGLY UNDERUTILIZED!!!!! Also the s5 plot felt like they were just. Dragging the whole thing. The finale was cool, moral dilemma and all, but everything before that? Unremarkable. Questionable, even. I only liked the statements. (But tbh I mainly only like the statements.)
Imagine if Tim hadn’t actually died and instead became an avatar of the Desolation. Imagine Jon in season 5 looking for Jude in her domain and finding Tim instead. Imagine that
hello !! id say im a jonmartin fan (not my top jon ship tho lmao…jongerry forever) but i like them best with their nuances and not the blorboified version of them. so i have something to offer.
jon and martin fall in love with each other much in the same way they know to receive/take love from their family members.
martin’s mother was shown to be callous and verbally mean to him. im not saying jon is as bad as her (not even close) what i am saying is martin loved the part of jon that he was familiar with. someone who didnt like him.
jon started to noticeably fall in love with martin when he was distant from him and ignored him, much like his grandmother. thats how he’s felt love in the past.
thats how they grew up and it skewed their perception of love and relationships. its inherently unhealthy. i think that aspect of their relationship is very overlooked and interesting. i hope you understand what i mean as im not very good at explaining my thoughts 😅
Interesting take but i don’t fully agree. I mean this is obviously what happened with Martin, but Jon? Not really.
In order for this to work out we would first need to see a buildup to Jon and Martin’s relationship, which the canon didn’t provide us with. That’s my main issue - the romance came out of nowhere. We knew about Martin’s crush from almost the very beginning, but not Jon’s.
In season 4 he changed his stance on Martin - from “he’s useless and unqualified” to “we have to trust what hes doing”. That’s a nice beginning, but not really the setting stone for a romance. So my problem is we can’t really say anything about Jon’s perspective on the relationship bc there really wasn’t any journey to it. They didn’t have even one proper interaction to show us their newly developed dynamic. The romance sucks because it’s undercooked and has no real foundation, it just appeared out of thin air. If there were any developments during their period in the safehouse, we didn’t hear them. Also I cannot for the life of me understand that random timeskip there sorry
So maybe you’re right and your perspective is accurate but the canon gives us little more than a few “I love you"s. After a while it just turns to pure speculation. Season 5 should’ve let those gays simmer. Soak up the trauma juices for flavour
