I DO think The Magnus Archives fucked up by presenting Jonmartin as a healthy couple, not simply because I don’t believe they were very functional at all, but also because having them remain the pillar of hope throughout the season sabotaged the supposed horror tragedy. If your audience is describing the final act of your horror tragedy as a honeymoon road trip, perhaps it’s time to ask yourself what went wrong.
i feel like it’s a personality test for tma fans which fears you associate with characters who don’t canonically have super obvious ones (ie hunt daisy, eye john, lonely martin)
which fear do you associate tim stoker with. no “none” option. if you HAD to pick one
these options are all the most common ones/ones i’ve seen associated with him in the fandom but if you have a different one i am greatly intrigued to hear
i feel like it’s a personality test for tma fans which fears you associate with characters who don’t canonically have super obvious ones (ie hunt daisy, eye john, lonely martin)
which fear do you associate tim stoker with. no “none” option. if you HAD to pick one
these options are all the most common ones/ones i’ve seen associated with him in the fandom but if you have a different one i am greatly intrigued to hear
In honor of JonMartin week, allow me to share a jmart hot take:
Canon jmart is kinda toxic ngl. Like not in the sense of “oh you’re so bad for each other please break up!” But in the sense that they would benefit immensely from some couple’s counseling.
True. They wouldn’t go tho
They would attend one meeting, get told that their relationship is actively harming the both of them, and then leave and never return or do any further reflection
im still stuck on the very beginning episodes of season 3 because the fact that im going to have to hear MARTIN reading the statements and not Jon kinda turned me off (i think martin reads them? its been a month or two since i last listened to tma)
I would’ve sacrificed Martin so fast for another ten seconds of Sasha. Or Tim. Or Gerry. Or Jurgen Leitner, I don’t care. I can’t believe we lost so many great characters and yet fucking Martin persisted.
partner ( @nervous-young-man ) is telling me ab martin (tma) and i need to know why more people dont fking hate this guy?!? yall r seeing how he treats jon and ur turning a blind eye…?🤨 mmkay
partner ( @nervous-young-man ) is telling me ab martin (tma) and i need to know why more people dont fking hate this guy?!? yall r seeing how he treats jon and ur turning a blind eye…?🤨 mmkay
THIS IS WHAT I’M FUCKING SAYING (you are so real for this op) (tiny rant under cut idk how much you care about spoilers but S5 SPOILERS AHEAD)
Martin has the gall to paint himself as the victim in s5 when its Jon that got kidnapped, beaten, abused, burned, and assaulted both physically and mentally multiple times throughout the show.
Meanwile he just got depressed and had to work a desk job for a while. Peter Lukas didn't even do that much to him, he isolated himself because of his own decision. That man's hypocrisy has no bounds
you’re kinda so right and i think ill love you forever. like im sorry you had to isolate yourself a little and work an overpaid kinda easy job but like?? id do that too it sounds kinda great sign me up man please please
Why are people on tumblr so defensive of characters like Martin? Weasely, passive aggressive little nice guys piss me off to no end but if I express an iota of discontent people jump down my throat
My best guess is that they relate to him, really. “Insecure and bitchy” describes a lot of people likely to use Tumblr (as a safe outlet for bitchiness) and participate in fandom.
The whole tragedy of jmart is that they would’ve never worked out, no matterwhat situation they ended up in.
In their current situation, Martin can’t bring himself to love Jon fully and honestly because he finds the “monstrous” part of Jon repulsive.
If Jon hadn’t become an Avatar, then the others wouldn’t have resented him and so he wouldn’t have turned to Martin in such a desperate attempt to maintain a connection with humanity.
If they hadn’t been working at the Magnus Institute, then they probably wouldn’t have looked in eachother’s direction twice, and they definitely wouldn’t have formed any meaningful bonds.
MAG 199 - Seeing It Through
The canon timeline is possibly the only scenario in which they ended up together, and they both know it. They are holding on by sheer willpower. Their relationship is a carefully balanced structure just one precise jab away from crashing down.
And I think there’s beauty to be found in that. How they both claw desperately at one another to remain stable.
jmart is codependence by circumstance to me, and I 100% agree fanon Martin is a huge mischaracterisation. That being said, I’m also with you on exploring the canon-accurate relationship there — what does it mean to be clinging on to each other as a last-ditch effort to keep a semblance of humanity?
Jon is with Martin because Martin keeps him grounded. Martin only likes the “human” part of Jon - the part he can easily wrap his mind around - and so belittling the “monster” part of the man is no problem to him. Without Martin, Jon would’ve succumbed to avatarhood wholly. With Martin “keeping him in check”, he’s only toeing the line and can be (harshly) pulled back a bit, if necessary.
Martin stays with Jon because it offers him protection. Without Jon, he would be likely to succumb to his own little Lonely domain (which we get a brief view of). It’s also stated that by staying with Jon, Martin is shielded from the physical aspect of the horrors - he’s still scared by them, but they cannot hurt him or wound him, and so he can walk freely through the Fearscape in the role of a viewer. It’s the best case scenario for him.
Also, by staying with Jon, who is by default more monstrous than him, Martin gets to reassure himself - by looking at Jon being very far gone, he feels more stable in his own slowly deteriorating humanity (he’s ashamed and afraid of the fact that he, too, has a domain, which makes him the perpetrator following the Fear-infested world logic - he cannot bear the thought of being just as harmful as the other avatars, who he deems terrible monsters that should be killed)
They don’t have many other reasons to stay together, because they simply hadn’t had the time to get to know eachother as people outside of their grotesque eyepocalypse hiking trip in which Jon is actively being consumed by an eldritch being.
In the half an episode we got of them pre-apocalypse, their relationship seems to have had only started blossoming. There is nothing more than the usual kind exchanges between two friendly people. It’s a nice beginning for something bigger, but it certainly isn’t love, not at that time.
After the apocalypse starts, there is suddenly a lot of weight put on their bond - they are quite literally the only ones left. They cannot afford to be casually lovey-dovey when their wellbeing and sanity are at stake.
Had each of them been on their own, I’m sure that witnessing the sufffering of countless people would have its effect on their mental health; it’s also very likely that they would’ve turned into avatars of their own. By staying together, they are also distracting eachother from the horror surrounding them.
Their days are spent walking through fear-filled landscapes, not to mention that each of them has to deal with their own problems - Jon has suddenly found himself in a position that makes him both very powerful and very fragile, and Martin is fighting off his desire to isolate himself and his fear of Avatar-Jon. Every time they say “I love you”, all I can hear is “please don’t leave me”.
Martin Blackwood would totally be into greek mythology, but in that theatre kid way.
By that i mean he would water it down to “omgg ancient greeks were so gayy thats hot” and he would base his whole opinion on the two myths he read back in middle school
no hate here but like no we don’t what class would that even be in? english lit? 😨 i mean maybe in some schools but like in my exam board you’ve just got poetry, post 1914 lit, and a shakespeare text ((different ones chosen by different schools)) even at a-levels it’s not on the spec because idk it’s just too niche i guess
Man idk i definitely studied greek myths in my native language class. I was just guessing. Also sucks to be you ig greek mythology was awesome
Martin Blackwood would totally be into greek mythology, but in that theatre kid way.
By that i mean he would water it down to “omgg ancient greeks were so gayy thats hot” and he would base his whole opinion on the two myths he read back in middle school
no hate here but like no we don’t what class would that even be in? english lit? 😨 i mean maybe in some schools but like in my exam board you’ve just got poetry, post 1914 lit, and a shakespeare text ((different ones chosen by different schools)) even at a-levels it’s not on the spec because idk it’s just too niche i guess
Man idk i definitely studied greek myths in my native language class. I was just guessing. Also sucks to be you ig greek mythology was awesome
No wait why are you looking at my month old flop post. @martinblackwoodhater what are you hoping to gain what are you trying to achieve. Exposing my lack of knowledge about the british school system to the world. i feel like im being targeted
Martin Blackwood would totally be into greek mythology, but in that theatre kid way.
By that i mean he would water it down to “omgg ancient greeks were so gayy thats hot” and he would base his whole opinion on the two myths he read back in middle school
no hate here but like no we don’t what class would that even be in? english lit? 😨 i mean maybe in some schools but like in my exam board you’ve just got poetry, post 1914 lit, and a shakespeare text ((different ones chosen by different schools)) even at a-levels it’s not on the spec because idk it’s just too niche i guess
Man idk i definitely studied greek myths in my native language class. I was just guessing. Also sucks to be you ig greek mythology was awesome
No wait why are you looking at my month old flop post. @martinblackwoodhater what are you hoping to gain what are you trying to achieve. Exposing my lack of knowledge about the british school system to the world. i feel like im being targeted
im evil 😈😈
Pookie please I have so many martin hateposts that are better than this. Stop attacking me!! I’m your most loyal soldier but I’m certainly not the strongest. I’ll crumble
Also youre not gonna find hate about you under that tag. The most hateposts abt you are on those anonymous magpod confessions accounts and i think at least one of those blocked u
When you think about it, Jon and Martin’s experiences with the Institute were roughly the same. The only difference is in their behaviour, and in how each of them handled themselves.
Oh Martin had to work alongside Peter Lukas and fulfill all his wishes and orders, even if they didn’t sit right with him? Jon had to do the exact same for Elias.
Martin worked his ass off to protect his coworkers from a big unknown evil, and isolated himself from everyone in the process? Jon went through the same with his Gertrude murder investogation.
Martin had no one left in the world to care for him, especially after his mother died? Jon was alone too - at a certain point everyone in the Archives resented him, he was an orphan without any living family members, and the only person he could turn to was an ex girlfriend who really didn’t like him all that much.
Jon and Martin even have similar self-esteem issues. They are both depressed.
But somehow Martin always ends up as the fandom’s poor mistreated boy, and all Jon ever gets to be is a wet blanket antichrist boyfriend whose only redeeming characteristic is his undying love and devotion for the former man.
When you think about it, Jon and Martin’s experiences with the Institute were roughly the same. The only difference is in their behaviour, and in how each of them handled themselves.
Oh Martin had to work alongside Peter Lukas and fulfill all his wishes and orders, even if they didn’t sit right with him? Jon had to do the exact same for Elias.
Martin worked his ass off to protect his coworkers from a big unknown evil, and isolated himself from everyone in the process? Jon went through the same with his Gertrude murder investogation.
Martin had no one left in the world to care for him, especially after his mother died? Jon was alone too - at a certain point everyone in the Archives resented him, he was an orphan without any living family members, and the only person he could turn to was an ex girlfriend who really didn’t like him all that much.
Jon and Martin even have similar self-esteem issues. They are both depressed.
But somehow Martin always ends up as the fandom’s poor mistreated boy, and all Jon ever gets to be is a wet blanket antichrist boyfriend whose only redeeming characteristic is his undying love and devotion for the former man.
Every time I make an attempt to analyze Martin, I realize more and more that he’s just… an ordinary person.
With every other character their experience is somewhat unique - it’s not everyday someone gets consumed by an ancient eldritch fear entity (Jon), or encounters a living corpse and loses the ability to feel fear (Georgie). The closest encounter Martin had with anything supernatural was with Prentiss, and still that didn’t have any impact on him whatsoever (aside from introducing him to the Fears). He reacted as any other statement giver would.
He’s a shy awkward guy with a high voice who kinda sucks at his job, and the first impression of him that we get is he’s unlikeable (based off of what Jon says about him). He’s shy and bubbly and stuttering, has a strong sense of justice, he feels like he doesn’t fit in anywhere. Stereotype personified. Even his “succumbing to the Fear” arc was just a metaphor for heavy depression, with fog added for aesthetics.
I’m not trying to paint it as a bad thing, it’s just that almost every piece of modern media has a character like that. Because they are relatable. Because the viewer sees themself in them. Martin is very relatable. His experiences are almost universal, especially for young queer people (who seem to be the majority of the podcast’s audience).
And that’s why, unless you relate to him and project your own issues onto him, there is ultimately nothing unique to be found in his character. Fans put him on a pedestal because he’s a reflection of themself, or they dislike him because he’s a reflection of themself. Not me tho I hate him because he’s an annoying asshole (but that’s purely personal)
WHY did tma in s5 simplify so much of its previously complex story. Jonah is the big evil antagonist who’s actually weak now and who miscalculated and who dies like a dog. Jon is an all powerful being who kills Elias without a second thought bc he’s evil and everyone suffered solely because of his manipulation obviously. Martin is the goody two shoes who is oh so noble because he doesn’t want anyone to suffer, and so he’s willing to condemn countless other universes to suffering just so his own can be fear-free. The podcast ends in a love confession and one lover stabbing the other and it’s fatal and it’s love that had to be sacrificed for the greater good and they are sooo tragic and it’s so heartbreaking. Where’s the paranormal horror? Why did we ditch the genre at the very end of our story
this is actually a very popular opinion for most people who can at the very least fathom the concept of hating martin. i also think it’s the wrong opinion.
People always like to complain about other fans because then they can cast blame onto some like nondescript entity and like a strawman of martin mischaracterizers so that they can ignore martins actual flaws as a character and ignore how much of a puppet he is as a character and how he flip flopped so limply yet extremely in s5 purely due to the actual writing
Martin was, in my opinion, kinda a bad character, but people don’t actually talk about that they cast the blame away from the writing and instead to the ghost of a concept of evil martin misunderstanders so that they can feel more intellectually superior in their own interpretations when the character can’t even really hold that much weight by himself without the people projecting onto him purely because of the way the writers clearly didn’t really understand where to truly go with him.
He was kind of a shell of a character by the end, just a distorted husk of his potential as a character, no more than a weird hypocritical confusion of ideas and ideals and motivations without real clear direction or purpose other than exposition and the idea of a romantic relationship with Jon and maybe some semblance of overinflated humanity he’s still getting snappy and overdefensive and territorial about ((because he thinks it makes him superior to Jon and everyone else)), but even that wasn’t really interesting 🙄
Sometimes I genuinely wonder if Jonah had a plan for Jon in s5, because surely mr Jonah I-have-a-plan-for-everything Magnus wouldn’t have just gone “mmmh yes, imma create an extremely powerful Archivist and trick him into bringing about the apocalypse” and not sit back for a moment and realise all the glaringly obvious flaws in that plan.
I get it! Life has been terrible for them. And I feel SO bad for everything that happened for for everything they went through! Seriously!
But it was not Jon’s fault and they can stop acting like it was.
Melanie acts as id Jon forced her to join the institute. HE WASNT EVEN HERE!! And Tim and Martin tried to stop her from doing it! It was her own, free decision and yes, she had no idea what she got herself into, but again: NOT JON’S FAULT!!!
And yes, I dont even want to imagine what pain she went through from the bullet lodged into her leg for months. But Jon had her best wishes in mind when he and basira took it out and she said herself, that there was no other way.
But she still treats him HORRIBLY for it!!!
And Basira!
I get that she was alone and had to stop trusting anyone. I get that she was grieving and hurt and scared.
But, once again: not jon’s fault.
Yes, he asked for her help with research for gertrudes death but nothing more. The fact that she is trapped in the institute is Elias fault and his alone.
And yes, Jon is not completely human anymore and that scares her. I get that!
But he DID NOT ASK FOR IT!!!
Neither did he choose to be away for 6 months!
He was in a COMA!!!
Basira is acting like he CHOSE to be away and leave them alone!! He did NOT
So can she PLEASE stop keeping everything a secret from him??? He wants to help but he CANT!
Especially since he’s the only one who wants and actually tries to free Daisy!!
If you disagree with me, PLEASE tell me! I want to like them!!! And I did!! In the last season I loved them!!! But this annoys me soo much!!!
Jon is not actually as much of an ignorant skeptic as the fandom likes to paint him. He is not completely clueless either.
He has knowledge of Leitner books and paranormal happenings, he’s simply not gulible the way I see it. He is just (coldly) considering all of the possibilities, and people are quick to write him off as an ignorant fool because of the mean tone of his voice. Putting that aside, I would say that he behaves quite logically, considering his situation.
The only time he’s pushing it is with the first spider oriented statement - it’s too personal, and so he wants to distance himself from it, because writing it off as normal would also mean his own experience was perfectly logical and nothing to be worried about.
People say he’s a stupid skeptic because they already know all those things to be real. Jon doesn’t. He is simply being reasonable. Even some of the statement givers admit that after their first encounter they tried to find a logical explanation for it, because you aren’t used to supernatural phenomena in your everyday life! By considering the most likely causes first Jon is doing the correct thing! He’s just mean about it!
I would like to extend an apology. When I first found your account, I made the vapid assumption that you were a Martin hater just to play devil’s advocate or engage in counter-culture somehow and wrote you off. Now I think I’ve come to genuinely appreciate the work you do for the TMA fandom. You are a national treasure, Tumblr user martinblackwoodhater.
I belive Martin could have been a great character, especially in Season 5. We know Martin is an avatar, and we learn that he has his own domain, combine it with the fact that he's an airhead who thinks every single avatar is a monster, and it's the perfect setting to explore him in depth, but nope, let's focus on the romance, that'll do better. We do get a little bit of Martin's self reflection on it but it's so few times that it was (at least for me) irrelevant and insignificant.
So true. Suddenly the last season of a horror fiction podcast decided to become a romantic tragedy. Everything was focused on a relationship that didn’t even have a chance to properly develop. The writing just smooshed their faces together like two puppets and declared them deeply in love
By constantly reminding Jon that he's a monster, Martin is actually causing him to get worse. And it's so odd??
Since he loved Jon when he was human, you'd think that he would do everything in his power to try and help the man to return to his old self. But he purposely makes Jon worse by belittling him.
He uses Jon to feel better about himself - Jon's an avatar almost fully consumed by the Power, and he's an avatar only halfway. By reminding Jon how far he's gone he also simultaneously highlights that he's the more human one out of the two of them.
Even when he makes use of Jon's abilities, it's purely for his own gain. The killing spree? His idea. The people he wanted Jon to kill were people he had a personal grudge against. But he suddenly does a 180 and acts like it was Jon's thing when they're in Jude Perry's domain, because he doesn't have anything personal against her, and so suddenly it's Jon who has to decide.
Martin's selfish. And selfishness is not a foundation for a healthy relationship. It isn't even a foundation for an interesting relationship! He acts like a toxic parent!
truth truth truth like king im sorry you had a somewhat shit mother but like oh my godddd so did everyone else and they weren’t SO insufferable 🙄🙄
also him acting like his mother and that being the reason his relationship is awful i begrudgingly admit could make him more defendable but the problem is that just literally is not written into the podcast like at all? like whatsoever?? and it just feels like such an odd choice because saying it out loud like yeah that’s so obvious
Was it ever stated explicitly that Melanie is an avatar of the Slaughter? Because I think that the Desolation would’ve suited her very nicely.
She hurts everyone around her, damaging herself as well. It was not exactly out of a desire for violence and the need to kill. Her hostility was a result of her being… lost, in a sense. An animal, trapped and afraid, ready to gnaw its own leg off just for a moment of freedom. She was trapped by her own grief, unable to move past it.
Her anger consumed her, just as the flames consumed her unsuspecting father.
The anger was technically foreign; it came from the bullet lodged deep in her body. But as it ingrained itself deeper, she could no longer tell where the bullet’s anger ended, and she began. Maybe it had always been there, simmering quietly, waiting for an opportunity to set her ablaze.
Anger that burns you out, leaving just ash. An invisible force that burns you alive, destroys you from the inside, and yet it’s a source of warmth, of comfort, of familiarity.
Her trying to change for the better was like a phoenix rising from its ashes. A dangerous being, rendered by its own power into a fragile, helpless thing, with no feathers to make it feel that warmth again. What will you do now? Without that fire, that force which defined your very being?
Annabelle Cane is a waste of character because she never threatened to fill Jon with spiders. she threatens Martin and not Jon?? the best character to get filled with spiders?? if I were a Web avatar, the things I would do to Jon Archivist belong on my nsfw side blof <3
I LISTENED TO 173 AND 174 AND OH MY FUCKING GOD I'M SO DONE WITH THIS GUY. HOLY SHIT (pulling out the transcripts for this one)
HE CAN'T FUCKING DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT YOU DICK!!! he has told you this multiple times and calling him monstrous and essentially saying he's a terrible/shit person for not being able to do anything is fucking terrible and I think you should go die.
WHAT THE FUCK??? WHAT THE FUCK??? "Thank you fir not hitting me this time." AND YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE AND BE COMPLACENT WITH THE LIE THAT THIS SHIP IS HEALTHY??? HOLY FUCKING SHIT
the bitterness in Jon's voice towards the end... oh my god. it's so fucking justified because your boyfriend is using you like a tool (which is what I have gathered from their relationship in s5, it's just martin using Jon - to be his personal little all-powerful murderer, to inform him of what's going on from time to time (when he isn't electing to instead ignore it like an idiot) - and then ignoring him and treating him awfully for the rest. god) but oh my god jon's voice at the end there fucking breaks me because he sounds so tired and done with Martin's bullshit (FOR ONCE) but he shouldn't have to be. I'm so sick of martin and his entire character I hate him so much.
also he's always so annoyed and exasperated with Jon but why? he seems to constantly be annoyed and sick of him and I don't understand- for the most part Jon's literally just either doing what Martin tells him to, does what he needs to do, or talking to martin in a way that is so fond and loving and martin DOES NOT deserve it at all.
^^ especially in MAG 174
what the fuck is wrong with you? maybe because he doesn't want to kill people? because (unlike you) his first and foremost wish isn't to cause harm and pain?
why does he want to be so controlling? one thing that really got me about this episode and this dialogue specifically is that martin sounds so much like those cliche toxic girlfriends in american media, the ones that are super controlling and insist you're cheating/go through your phone/cut you off from your friends because they don't trust you WHY DID THEY MAKE HIM SOUND LIKE THAT???? this is not a healthy relationship I'm so done how does the fandom see them in a positive light? how can they be so ignorant?
and finally:
man :( man I really thought we were gonna get an apology- or even just an acknowledgement of his behaviours!! (not that it'd matter; he wouldn't be able to compensate for all the shitty things he's managed to do in JUST 12 EPISODES) but I was kind of hopeful! but alas. no. he sees a chance to shift the blame onto someone else and he takes it as soon as he can with a "(small laugh)" (even though jon willingly taking it is obviously just cause of his incredibly poor self-worth (which martin is not helping btw))
I'm so pissed about this :( I'm so not happy with this :(( why would they do this?? genuinely what were they thinking when they wrote s5 martin? they made his entire character so... malicious. I hate it, and I hate him, thank you for coming to my ted talk. (I'm really scared/sad to continue because I really wanna finish the podcast but I don't like martin's character at all and listening to him makes me sick and it ruins the entire experience)
there’s nothing more for me to add to this tbh but you’re so right and i have no idea how the fandom has such a severe misunderstanding of jmart as a relationship at all
People were so quick to say “oooh Jon hated Martin sooo much in s1! Haha what a stupid man, that’s your boyfriend! He has a crush on you!” But Jon was justified in his dislike.
He just got promoted to a job he frankly had no idea how to do. His predecessor left the place in a state worthy of despair, and he was trying hard to make sense of it. On top of that, he was unpleasantly reminded of his own paranormal encounter, from which he desperately wished to distance himself.
If I were trying so hard to do my job correctly, and i had a coworker who would straight up refuse to do his job sometimes because “it spooks him”, it would irritate me too. Jon was uncomfortable with the statements as well. He just didn’t show it.
He was incompetent, yeah, but it’s not like anyone was there to train him, plus him being unprepared benefitted Elias. He did his best. Martin just sat on his ass all day and made them tea sometimes
literally just saw your blog and thought hey, what the heck!
Personally I only have the capacity to hate one character, and that's Jonah Magnus (and even then I live how cunty he is for no reason lmao) so I'm just wondering what made you hate Martin in the first place?
I wouldn’t mind jmart being unhealthy at all if their relationship hadn’tbeen so… ordinary.
Let me start off by saying that it isn’t an inherently bad thing to portray toxic relationships in media. Moreover, the toxic relationships do not necessarily need to be painted as wrong or punished by the narrative. More often than not, unhealthy bonds are far more appealing to the audience than healthy ones.
I would be more forgiving of jmart being toxic if it wasn’t so veryboring. I said before that making Jon and Martin a couple was essentially putting two coworkers together and making them walk through the apocalypse. They don’t know each other outside of the Institute atall.
Everything Martin knows about Jon is that he likes the tape recorders, and for most of the time he believed Jon to be a good man. He developed a crush on the man presumably because his rudeness and callousness towards him reminded him of his mother, so it was familiar.
Jon didn’t even know that Martin made up his last name. All that he knows of the man he learned during his period of paranoia-induced interrogations and stalking. He could, of course, learn infinitely more about him now that he became an Avatar, but considering Martin’s repulsion to the Eye and the Fears in general, I doubt that would improve their relationship much. If anything, it would push them further apart.
Even the toxicity of their relationship is so basic. The fact that they are in a world ruled by ancient fear entities didn’t add any interesting twists to the nature of their bond.
Martin belittles Jon for his monstrous urges and abilities, only being tolerant of them if it benefits him. While the killing spree was not explicitly started by Martin, he was the one to urge Jon to continue despite the latter’s hesitation and shame. He ordered Jon to kill the avatars that he personally disliked (Simon, Oliver) but he suddenly wasn’t all that murder-positive when it came to the ones he did not know personally (Jude Perry). He made an attempt to apologize for it, but he took back his apology almost immediately.
Jon takes it all quietly and without complaint because he hates his new self as well. It’s not at all a new thing, not even for him - Basira and Melanie already hated him for being an avatar waaaay back in season 4.
An interesting bond requires a foundation. Jon and Martin do not have that. They did not have enough time to develop that. Almost immediately after they got together the Eyepocalypse started, and that is not a good environment for a blossoming relationship.
They both need eachother, they need closure, they need someone, anyone to latch onto. But they don’t even know eachother aspeople.
Even their mutual desire to sacrifice themself for the other feels selfish. They wouldn’t be able to survive on their own. Without the other, it’s likely that they would’ve succumbed to the Fears fully, and neither of them wanted that.
It’s easy to offer to die for the other. It’s infinitely harder to let go.
I’ve just realized what bugs me the most when I’m comparing canon and fanon Martin. It’s the fact that in canon he never really changed.
I’ve said this before, but right now it really hit me. The Martin we see in early seasons is exactly the same Martin we see in season 5. He had always been like this.
I feel like the reason people talk about his “change” in season 5 is because up to that moment we’ve mainly heard Martin interacting with Jon, the man he had a crush on. Of course he’s gonna be stuttering and awkward! But when talking with Tim for example, Martin is his usual self - unless Jon is mentioned, of course.
Also there was this whole thing with the Lonely, where he got depressed and isolated himself from everyone. But for some reason it wasn’t a catalyst for his character development - when he got out of it, when he got out of the Lonely, he stayed the same as before. He just gained some self-awareness.
Season 5 Martin acts this way because at that point he has an idea of what’s happening and isn’t so anxious about his surroundings anymore, and, like every person that’s not being absolutely crushed by guilt at that time (Jon), his main objective is to get revenge for all the suffering he had to go through. Every other person from the archive crew would’ve done the same if they were in his position.
And there’s also the matter of him falling out of love with Jon / starting to see him more as a weapon, a monster, or just “his boyfriend” rather than a person.
Oh my god i just saw the ask you sent to mister hater and
WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?
This is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Martin said word-for-word "Let's go full Kill Bill! You know, get our murder on!" And then he just straight up backtracked his apology?? How in the world did I miss it?
Obviously Jon said that to him because he feels guilty. Hell, he felt guilty about the whole smiting thing from the start. He didn't realize he could kill avatars, he didn't mean to do it. He just wanted to hurt the NotThem because it hurt him. He was ashamed of it after it was done.
And then Martin encouraged him to do it, and straight up pointed at the avatars he wanted dead and got mad when Jon wasn't okay with killing people. As long as Martin felt good with it, the killing was a good and morally correct thing, but then he got a bit upset and bam! All Jon's fault!No, Jon, you can't expect me to make a decision whether or not to kill Jude Perry, because I don't hold any personal grudges against her and it's your hand that got burnt, so it's your choice to make. By the way, can you kill Simon Fairchild for me? He threatened to throw me off a rollercoaster once.
Jon can't control his monstrous urges obviously, and he needs to be put in his place before he starts killing people like the other Big Evil Monsters, because he's one of them!
I want someone to hurt Martin for real. Maybe then he would gain an ounce of sympathy for his boyfriend whom he supposedly loves. This is wilddd I'm so mad rn
one HUGE theme that I have found consistent in martin’s character throughout s5 so far is that he’s selfish, and loves not being held accountable for his actions. He uses jon like a tool to deal with his own personal grudges and is constantly egging him on and supporting him in a choice that wasn’t even his own, but when jon wants to smite someone for his OWN reasons, it’s suddenly “oh, you’re pushing this onto me! I can’t make this choice for you! making me choose is unfair!” despite his weird need to be up to date with and in constant control of all of jon’s choices.
^^ I mentioned this scene in my rant and I think it’s one of the first times we are shown outright how involved martin thinks he deserves to be in his boyfriend’s decisions and inner turmoil (also mentioned this before, but this toxic level of involvement that he seeks is so reminiscent of a mistrustful and paranoid gf looking through your phone and checking all your messages and history - the fact that he’s canonically super prone to jealousy is NOT helping this)
he feels the need and right to have a say in everything jon does, but as soon as Jon asks for his input or help with a decision he has to make, “that’s not fair”.
also yes, martin sees only in black and white; which is not ideal when your boyfriend happens to have triggered the apocalypse and is very much morally grey (against his best wishes). He keeps mentioning that all avatars are inherently Bad and deserve to die, not even once considering how Jon might internalize this in regards to his own self-image, or stopping to ask himself whether that’s really the case, or if his own over-simplification of the world he finds himself in is an attempt to cope with the fact that no, “good” and “bad” don’t exist anymore, and trying to force different concepts into those boxes will only result in a warped and inaccurate interpretation of your world.
but yes it’s wild I actually hate him sm idk how people can ship them in s5 they’re so obviously toxic and not good for eachother? how are you looking past that?
And the thing is jon can’t even acknowledge or process this properly because he is relying on martin so heavily, to be his anchor, to be his reason; he’s stuck in a constant spiral of guilt and blaming himself for everything so he doesn’t think he deserves anything, really, so martin tolerating him and wanting to be near him more than he is repulsed by him is such a relief. I’m so pissed about this. Jon deserves so much better
What's your opinion on The Extinction? I personally was very disappointed that a whole new fear was used just as a plot device in S4 and nothing more, I was hoping we were going to get something real big in S5 considering the situation, but at the same time, the Extinction is a young fear, so it kind of makes sense it wouldn't be as prevalent as the others (but i think we should have gotten more than just one statement of it)
I feel the same way. What was the point of introducing an apocalypse-related fear if it wasn’t going to be presentin the season set in the apocalypse?
It fit perfectly with the fifth season and the Eyepocalypse. But of course it had to be used for Martin angst! Poor boy, overworking himself and cutting everyone off because he wants to protect them from the Big Bad Extinction!
The setup for it was neat. And I think they could’ve gotten away with making it a red herring, if the following season had literally anything of substanceto deliver,instead of a romantic end-of-the-world hike and an oddly framed moral dilemma.
Also, the podcast literally stated that the Extinction was emerging rapidly, and that they had limited time to act and prepare - and then nothing happened. There was no “defeating” or “overcoming” the Ritual - it wasn’t even there. It just disappeared abruptly.
The Extinction was hyped up so much just to be unceremoniously tossed aside the second it became irrelevant to Martin’s story.
The fact that Jon is blamed for everything even after he sacrificed himself to save everyone and the one that actually did it is probably forgotten and no one blames him for anything will hurt me anytime I think about it
I cannot for the life of me understand jmart roleswap au because then the plot just wouldn’t have happened.
The entire podcast happened because Jon was the person he was. Putting Martin in the Archivist’s position and Jon as his anchor instead would 1) cancel it all out and 2) need a rewrite of Martin’s entire character.
Jon I get, his current story has a whole lot of Lonely undertones, but Martin? I mean, Martin’s story is that he never received a proper education because he had to be there for his mother, and with the few episodes of him reading the statements it’s obvious he doesn’t have much knowledge in the way of research. He has a very black and white way of thinking: he doesn’t believe in police violence, because the police are supposed to protect the people! He despises Elias because he’s the big evil boss who hurt him! He wouldn’t stop for even a second to consider the motives of someone he already deemed as ’evil’ in his mind. Martin wouldn’t need to know. He would just leave it all alone.
His character is supposed to be that ’wet blanket nothing guy whom everyone underestimates and who’s actually more than capable of violence and manipulation’. I get that putting Martin as the big scary Archivist with Eye powers and Jon as his little Lonely boyfriend looks cool in fanart but it makes absolutely no sense plot wise.
Were Martin to be the Archivist, the entire story just wouldn’t have played out the way it did. Martin would read the statements out loud and chuck them into one of Gertrude’s boxes without looking. Elias would be SEETHING with rage
it was a completely unnecessary action and he absolutely didn’t NEED to hit him. he could’ve just as easily shaken him gently or even just waved a hand quick enough in his direction - we don’t know.
my point was that it’s weird that that was his immediate first thought when they had absolutely no time constraints ((because time doesn’t really exist there)) and there was no danger around to threaten him. my point is that that just isn’t a factor of a healthy relationship, especially when combined with the lack of apology or even real explanation or guilt from martin afterwards, without a conversation afterwards about it really whatsoever.
i just feel like it’s a weird choice to write in for a character like martin who’s meant to be sympathetic. it’s not like i can’t appreciate nuanced takes on gay relationships or something, it’s just that it’s a really weird choice to write into what’s supposed to be a relatively positive relationship.
it doesn’t feel like the behaviour of two people who love eachother, and i recognise the tense situation with the literal apocalypse because obviously im not going to ignore that, but it wasn’t a situation that required speed or panic or any quick, rash decisions. maybe even if this was portrayed as a hasty, panicked decision i could even understand, but martin isn’t worried at all really - he’s just bored. it wasn’t a careless mistake done from a lack of time to think, it was something that was completely unnecessary and then not apologised for whatsoever.
Jon’s little “wha- what-?” afterwards makes ME upset and im not even in the scene and i don’t love him and it’s also not my fault. martin is in the scene and he is supposed to love him ((well not really because they’re probably not at that stage in the relationship yet but like he’s supposed to feel something like that)) and it is also his fault, and yet there’s none of that regret or real apology or guilt that i would expect as somewhat of the bare minimum for what’s supposed to be the portrayal of a semi-healthy relationship despite their situation.
ultimately, i just feel like this isn’t something that would be ignored and forgiven so easily if it wasn’t a straight relationship, and wasn’t a character that so much of the fandom relates to.
if you have any follow up questions then please ask im happy to answer those too, sorry this response got kinda long and sorry i got kinda off topic!!
In the later seasons, everyone deciding not to help Jon and instead cutting him off was theoretically reasonable. After all, they didn’t owe him anything. He caused himself to become like this, nobody turned him into an avatar. Cutting him off was a good and healthy choice for them. Yet I can’t help but notice that it was also cruel, in a way.
Yes, it wasn’t their fault that Jon became an avatar, but it wasn’t his fault either. He was in a coma. He didn’t want to die. It was the most likely choice not only for him - everyone else would’ve chosen the same, had they been in his position. His fate was arranged by others ever since he picked up that book at eight years old. It wasn’t his fault.
He emerged from the coma forever changed. It turned him weak, gave him new needs that had to be met. I understand that for the archive crew, Jon extracting the statements from innocent bystanders was disgusting and cruel. But he needed that to live. He lost his humanity piece by piece, and his entire self shifted into something strange. And everyone hated that new, broken Jon. But it wasn’t his fault.
The sudden change of Jon’s mind and body followed by everyone’s hatred and resulting in his isolation reminds me of someone suddenly becoming very ill or disabled.
Jon’s avatarhood was like a sickness. It was gradually destroying him from inside out. And no one wanted to help him. They saw the death of a normal man and the birth of this new, twisted version, and deemed him lesser than them, not worthy of their time. The damage helping him would cause them outweighted the benefits of that help. They deemed him something disposable. “It should’ve been you. You should’ve died and not Tim.” Jon was forced to suffer for something entirely out of his control.
Not even his boyfriend tried to help him, beyond trying to get rid of the symptoms that inconvenienced him personally. It’s not like Jon was a healthy, normal man, traversing through the apocalypse with just the occasional desire to describe his awful surroundings. He was assaulted by the fear from the very moment the apocalypse began. It gradually built up, until it was too much for him to bear and he had to unceremoniously vomit the horrors he felt. He was holding back his needs, denying himself any relief just because it was inconveniencing for the people around him. Martin didn’t even try to offer him an alternative, he just said the statements upset him and he didn’t want to hear them. Jon was forced to neglect his needs just so his boyfriend didn’t have to be uncomfortable. Martin could’ve at least shown some compassion.
It’s like doctors trying to manage the bothersome and abnormal symptoms instead of getting to the root of the problem and helping the patient function as they are. You should strive to be normal, because it’s the standard. You should do everything in your power to fit in. Anything not meeting the norm is deemed as less worthy and undesirable.
It also fits with how the last few episodes played out. Jon’s a monstrous avatar, so he is no longer given the right to decide for himself. He didn’t have a say in the discussion that regarded his own life. Like a disabled person. “You either submit to us entirely and we give you the help you need, or you keep your autonomy and we deny you help, because if you’re so self-sufficient, that means you don’t need it anymore”. He could either keep quiet and let others decide his fate, or he could disregard them and make the choice for himself, risking the loss of the only people who still tolerated him. And guess which path he chose.
Who cares if you don’t think the role swap would work, people posting about it shouldn’t make you this frustrated. Perhaps you meant well and it was just the way you phrased your words, but really you were raining on everybody else’s parade. It doesn’t matter if it wouldn’t really be possible or you don’t like it, just let people make whatever they want. The tone in which you wrote could easily be interpreted by artists as hurtful and scornful, and discourage them from having fun.
Well there’s a bunch of people who care apparently 😋 and I don’t think a gimmick blog could have that much of an impact on the entire fandom. Plus I put in the tags that I don’t care all that much you can draw whatever you want yadda yadda. If someone interprets this as a personal attack then idk block me or something
Plus I said that the only appeal of this au is that it looks cool or whatever. You can draw it idc.I’m just not a fan of mischaracterization
I am doing a TMA relisten to refresh my memory of the podcast. So far I’ve gone through season 1, and I’ve come to a realization of sorts. At the very beginning at least, Martin was kind. Annoying at times, of course, but kind; in that plain, simple, sweet way. He didn’t start off bad.
Since there are now takes that the tma s5 ending was more nuanced than people who dislike it give it credit for I’m just going to say: no, I don’t think Johnny meant to wholly endorse Martin & Basira & co. as uncomplicated good people making an uncomplicatedly moral choice. But. The reason people feel like the horror of it was accidental is because that’s not what the emotional beats focused on. The entire climax was written in such a way that getting a satisfying emotional response depended on being invested in the fate of jonmartin as a couple more than in anything else. If the horror had been deliberate the tone would not have been bittersweet, it would have been overwhelmingly bitter. Having I Do Not See It characters can be a well written flaw, but it doesn’t work if you make it easy for the audience to also go I Do Not See It. And the writing did allow for that - we were shown the positive (for Martin & Basira & co) consequences of the choice, that’s the note the show ended on*, and the only counterbalancing note to it was dissent from a character who was set up for a corruption arc and thus easily written off as only dissenting because he was corrupted by the Eye. I do think Johnny understood the horror of the choice M & B & co were making - but I don’t think he adequately emphasised or portrayed it, not just because of the audience response but because that audience response was shaped by what was shown and what wasn’t and what kind of emotional notes (hopeful) things ended on, and it’s the job of a horror writer to make an audience feel the full weight of horror of things that are meant to be horrifying.
*I refuse to take tmagp into consideration since that wasn’t even planned at the time
just finished my second relisten to tma and actually why is martin such a fucking bitch fr 😭 bro stands around doing nish for 3 seasons with a cup of tea then spends a season following peter like a fucking dumbass being a bitch to anyone thats not jon the whole damn show like godamn 😭 then hes walking the fucking apocalypse like 'jon fuck ur morals u should kill avatars thier monsters never mind that we are both avatars also im going to slap u and hold u accountable for starting the apocalypse so its ur job to fix it not like u were manipulated' 😭 liek damn bitch fuck off actually
yknow what someone had to say it good for you i lowkey love you for this. i do always appreciate when there are people who hate martin more intensely than me it really makes me feel vindicated and less radical
I’m still not over how Martin being jealous of Oliver is portrayed as a sexy and romantic thing.
Like I get wanting to kill the man who had a thing going on with your boyfriend. That could be seen as sexy. But ordering your boyfriend to kill that man? Just telling him to kill someone because YOU’RE jealous? Now that’s just weird.
It’s like those controlling boyfriends who forbid their girlfriend from having male friends because they’re jealous. Baby if this really was about your attaction to your boyfriend and not about you viewing him as your possession then you would’ve taken matters into your own hands and challenged that other man to a duel
He was clumsy and shy, and bad at his job, but he was also caring and kind, in a very simple way. His acts of kindness were plain but sweet in their simplicity, and his demeanor seemed almost childish. I can see how that could make him endearing.
He was quite an uncomplicated character: all that we knew of him was that he’s clumsy, a bit squeamish, fond of insects and other small creatures, and that he wrote bad poetry. A perfect fit into the softie character archetype. You could find him cute, and develop an attachment to him - it was easy since he had no real flaws. But he didn’t have anything unique about him either.
That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Characters like him have potential to develop into someone interesting and complex. They have a lot of room to grow and change. But Martin’s biggest problem as a character is that he did not change.
The shift in his attitude in s4 was only temporary. He decided that isolating himself from everyone was the correct thing to do, so he did it. For a brief amount of time he became more quiet, started actively avoiding people, and began to work alone. But that was out of his own decision. Nothing in his point of view or values had to shift for him to take this course of action.
And that was a great moment to actually develop his character. That isolation, the decision to voluntatily sacrifice himself for others without even informing them of the situation - it could’ve made him stop and think. It could’ve made him take a moment to reflect on himself and his actions. It could’ve prompted him to realize that things weren’t so conveniently black-and-white as he had always believed them to be. That could’ve been the moment he altered his point of view. But it wasn’t.
You know what did happen? He got depressed. That’s it. He opened up to the audience about how much he’s scared of being forgotten, how much he cared about his mother and how she pushed him away, how out of place he felt everywhere he went. All of that makes the listener sympathize with him and feel bad for him, of course. But those are all issues he struggled with in the past as well. It’s nothing new.
And when he got out of the Lonely, when he more or less managed to pull himself together, he was exactly the same man as before. He might’ve seemed different to the listener, because only then did we learn about his self-esteem issues and his motivations. But his attitude did not change.
He remained the same, simple man we got to know him as. He still divided the world into “good” and “bad” categories, despite being shown on multiple occasions that the world doesn’t work like that. He’s in full-blown denial about being an avatar himself, because then he would have to either put himself next to the people he considers evil, or actually discard his childish point of view.
Because of that oversimplified way of reasoning, he ends up belittling and demeaning his boyfriend, even though he too went through something similar and ended up in a nearly identical position to Jon. Both of them have new needs connected to being an avatar, Jon’s are just more prominent. While Jon needed to extract fear and then speak it out loud, Martin felt the need to isolate himself. Because of that, he was also unknowingly isolating Jon, since he was the only person the man could talk to without being told nearly point-blank that he doesn’t deserve to live.
It’s like the writers were too afraid to properly develop him. After all, it was the sweet, plain Martin whom everyone fell in love with, and so even the slightest change to that beloved sweet cinnamon roll who can do no wrong would’ve caused riots! So they decided to half-heartedly entertain the previously discarded idea of Martin being Web-aligned. “Oh look, the guy whom everyone thought is an innocent pure-hearted sweetie is actually a great manipulator! Anabelle thinks he would be soooo good for her patron, she’s so smug about it!”
I think it was supposed to be him finally standing up for himself. “Look, your poor tormented sweetie is finally getting his revenge for all the mistreatment he had to endure! But he’s still fearful and insecure of course :) it’s your favourite guy beating up the people who were mean to him!” And he didn’t even do the beating himself, he just made Jon do it without much concern for the man’s feelings.
I understand that standing up for yourself is important, especially for shy and insecure people, but there’s a difference between defending your autonomy as a person and just being needlessly rude. I’m sorry, but I don’t think getting mad at your boyfriend for things he repeatedly told you were out of his control counts as “taking your own feelings into account for once”. Martin’s perspective doesn’t really extend past his own needs, and by season 5 it’s no longer cute. It’s just exhausting to listen to.
