March 2025

This isn't really an argument but I've been thinking about it a lot - Mike crew was killed too fast too soon- Daisy irritates the crap out of me and Jon's hate towards her is more than justified - Sasha was killed too soon- I don't have the energy to plead all my cases and again I'm just about willing to see any other options

To be perfectly honest i didn’t even notice Mike Crew died when I first listened. I found that out only when I joined the fandom.

I don’t really have a strong opinion on Daisy, but from what I can remember her story and development are quite interesting. She hurt Jon terribly and he’s the only one that understands her. He tossed himself into the coffin in order to save the person that wanted to kill him. Two monsters, discarded by everyone, united together. And the whole thing with Basira liking the Hunt in Daisy, and becoming colder towards her when she was free of it? Delicious.

I read somewhere that Sasha was killed just because the voice actor had to leave for some reason. I don’t remember what it was tho. But I think it’s actually cool that the killing happened so soon - because of that I completely missed it and had the full Jon experience of him finding it out.

ive seen your jmart hate and analysis (and i think its starting to sway me), so i ask you… how do you feel about jon/gerry ?? ik they only have one episode together but even then (to me) their chemistry was so good, plus how gerry seems to be FAR. more accepting of jon’s avatarhood than martin in s5. for example when gerry asks “do you like it?” in reference to Compelling people and his role as archivist and jon replies “i suppose i do,” gerry doesnt seem phased at all. he rolls with it. and dont even get me started on jon promising to burn his page.

also if you dislike jon/gerry i wont attack <3 im just a big fan of them hoping to discuss . if you dont like them, who do you ship jon with (if anyone)?

Ooooohhhh. JonGerry. JonGerry my beloved. Imo best Jon ship cause they fit together so perfectly.

Gerry is almost a polar opposite to Martin (especially concerning their respective relationships with Jon). He was practically raised among the Fears. They’re his reality. His entire life was dedicated to them - from tracking down Leitners and disrupting the rituals with Gertrude, to being Eye-aligned himself. He is painfully aware of the Fears’ impact on the world, and, more importantly, the people around him.

He and Jon would work really well together, both as friends and as partners, because when it comes to it they’re quite similar.

Both Jon and Gerry were used by others for nearly the entirety of their lives. Jon was a puppet of the Web since he was a little kid, being subtly nudged and poked so that eventually he would become the Archivist and doom the world; he was also manipulated by Elias during his time in the Institute. Gerry was a tool for his mother; being isolated from his peers because of his upbringing, he had no choice but to become involved in her work. He hunted down Leitners, at first for her, and, when he realized the degree of Mary’s selfishness, he begun to seek them out in order to destroy them. Later, when he met Gertrude and started working at the Institute, once again he became the assistant; and while Gertrude was significantly kinder to him than Mary, he still ended up getting used and discarded.

Gerry hated his mother for her obsession with the Leitners, but couldn’t run away from her because she raised him in the knowledge of the Fears. Because of that no other person could understand him or his point of view, so he had no choice but to stay. Jon grows to hate Elias because he’s the one who (indirectly) caused him to become a monster, and yet Jon still would turn to him for help and advice because only Elias ever truly understood him.

Gerry would be much more accepting of Jon’s avatarhood because he himself had a very similar experience, and thus he’d be capable of understanding him, sympathizing with him, and not just call him a cruel monster like most of the cast. He would be able to understand Jon at his worst, and thus be capable of appreciating him at his best. Other people see Jon’s human side as the only part that’s truly “him” (“How much of you is even left now?” - The Jon that Martin is in love with and Avatar Jon are regarded as two different people), but Gerry would actually have knowledge of how the Fears work. He would be aware of how much the “human” Jon and “avatar” Jon are intertwined. He would see Jon as a whole. He wouldn’t divide the man into “pre-avatar” and “post-avatar” categories, because he knows it doesn’t work like that. He knows that it wasn’t Jon’s fault he became an avatar, and wouldn’t blame him for it.

To summarize I think they’re perfect for eachother. They get eachother so well ughhh. Can’t really say much about their interaction because I don’t remember it that well, but I recall it being significantly smoother than whatever Jon had going on with Martin.

Sometimes I mourn for the version of season 5 I thought I was going to hear. I loved the whole plotline of Jon trying to save Martin from the lonely. Because Jon felt responsible for him, and Martin was the only one of Jon's assistants left. and I was convinced I was going to see Jon realising that he actually didn't like Martin.

Because like. throughout the podcast Jon is continually choosing to try to get power and information in order to protect the people around him. He's willing to sacrifice his friendships, his safety, his humanity, because he cares, even for people who have tried to kill him. He tries to kill Not Sasha, someone he remembers being friends with, in order to protect the others. And then Martin gets offered the chance to kill Jonah Magnus and free all the employees and he turns it down because he's a person! and he wants to have friends!

and they're just so incompatible and I thought we'd get to see Jon wondering if it was worth it to save Martin, and all this delicious stuff. and the creators said they wouldn't make the relationship canon!

and then we got season 5 instead.

any thoughts?

Yeah. You covered basically everything I’ve been criticizing. Literally every single tma critical post I’ve made circles around these topics. (Under the cut bc I just learned how to make those)

Season 4 felt like a build-up to something huge. We got nearly all of the cast hating Jon for something completely out of his control. We got Martin trying to pull off a self-sacrifice. We got introduced to the Extinction, told that it was a terrible danger to everyone and that it had to be stopped. A lot of things were happening at once, and there was a looot of tension between the characters.

Then comes time for the big reveal, and it really was big. We found out what happened to Jonah Magnus and the real reason why the Institute was built. Martin also got to show that he’s not as weak and helpless as everyone thought.

Jon’s desperate attempt to pull Martin out of the Lonely was little more than that. By that point, Martin was literally the only person that didn’t outright despise Jon for becoming an Avatar, and that might be simply because he and Martin didn’t even talk once. Another reason for Jon’s lack of hesitation might be that he realized the crush Martin used to have on him, and so saving the man might’ve given him the hope of finding someone who’d treat him like a person, not a monster. All in all, it had less to do with romantic feelings, and more with desperation and the difficult situation Jon had found himself in.

There is no real build-up to them getting together. It’s just… one moment they’re in the Lonely, desperate to find one another, and a moment later they’re saying “I love you” and kissing eachother. When did that happen? And don’t say “well it was during the time they spent in the safehouse together!” Then why are they so painfully incompatible throughout season 5? Seriously, I get the whole “grasping at eachother for balance” thing, but was there really a need to make them a couple so soon? The build-up felt more like it would lead to a friendship, not outright romance - which is why their relationship felt so surface-level in the following season.

I completely missed the transition to the Safehouse on my first listen, and honestly I’m still not sure how it all happened. Jon and Martin’s conversations there seem light and at ease, but they have no real basis for a meaningful bond.

And yeah, there’s the issue with their contributions to their relationship being unequal. Jon is bending over backwards trying to accommodate Martin, leaving when he feels the need to make a statement, trying to explain everything as best as he can while carrying the weight of the world’s suffering on his shoulders. He’s not perfect, but it’s more than enough considering the situation they’re in.

But Martin? He’s selfish in his behaviour, even if it’s not outright visible. He refuses to listen to Jon talking about the fearscape because it makes him uncomfortable. He doesn’t try to look at the situation from Jon’s point of view - admittedly, that would’ve been very difficult, but he could’ve at least tried to show some support. He’s repulsed by Jon’s new needs, and, when they’re at Salesa’s, he laughs at Jon when he’s stripped of the Eye’s power. All of those behaviours are understandable of course, but it makes their relationship that ordinary kind of unhealthy; even tho they have their moments, ultimately they’re just two people staying together despite not getting on very well. It was spelled out for them by Peter Lukas:

(I’ve lost count of how many times I used this screenshot)

Peter was trying to upset Jon here of course. But that doesn’t change the fact it’s true. They just don’t have a basis for a meaningful relationship, because they barely even spoke. And yet they’re the focus of an entire season.

Yeah, yeah, it’s because of their circumstances, sure. But nearly every single fan looks at their relationship through rose-colored glasses. Better yet, I’ve seen people describe TMA as a “gay horror podcast” just because of jmart. And it’s infuriating, because their relationship gives us nothing. These two men talked for the first time in what? Months? And the writers decided “yeah we’ll make them boyfriends! This will be a hit with the gay fans for sure!” and then they wrote the blandest possible relationship they could’ve. It’s like your parents who constantly bicker yet don’t want to get a divorce. Just two coworkers in an apocalyptic world, and suddenly it’s “gay horror”.

Also they’re so obviously unhealthy, and yet the narrative just… ignores it. There aren’t any real consequences to their lack of compability, which is weird!! Really? No consequences? In MY inevitable consequences of your actions podcast?

Let’s talk abot Martin, because of course it all comes back to him. My main issue with the man is that he thinks in black and white. When the Avatars kill people it’s for their Patrons and out of their twisted desire, and so they’re bad and evil. When he kills people(through Jon), then it’s taking revenge on those monsters that hurt him, so it’s right, and it’s good. When Martin first witnessed Jon’s new “powers”, it’s him who came up with the idea of using it for revenge. And as long as it’s his initiative and Jon is only doing it for him, then it’s good and morally correct. But when he noticed Jon started to enjoy the killing, then suddenly it’s “wrong” and “not okay”, because “you weren’t supposed to enjoy it this much!” (Please be for real.) His perception of “right” and “wrong” is whatever is most convenient for him at that moment.

My other issue with Martin is that the Lonely barely even affected him. It was more like “heavy depression but make it Supernatural”. Season 4 started sculpting him into an interesting character, someone who’s ready to sacrifice himself yet cannot stand the thought of his friends getting hurt in the process. His whole Lonely arc gave him depth. He was focused. He had a plan. He made a decision and was ready to pull through with it.

But then he gets thrown into the Forsaken by Peter, and by the time Jon pulls him out, he’s exactly where he started. The same insufferable brand of nervousness and indecision and lack of understanding. Turned back into the nerd emoji. Like… the whole “Martin being an avatar of the Lonely” thing could serve as an explanation to the shallow nature of their relationship - it could be the Lonely pulling them further apart! Or Martin realizing he lost feelings for Jon and quietly distancing himself from the man! Delicious inescapable tragedy!

So yeah. There’s not a word said about their shitty bond, and it’s the main focus of the last season. Boring boring boring!!! The wonderful opportunity to make them both monstrous was MISSED!!! Of cooourse Martin is unaffected by the Lonely, it’s because he’s with Jon! Martin helps Jon regain his humanity! The Eye approves of their relationship!! Also the whole “you are my reason” part was, like, the easiest way to make Jon not suicidal, for which he had all the reasons imaginable. That man hated himself for being a monster, and everyone else hated him too!! But noo he’s with Martin now! The power of love cured him of depression! But not Martin tho, he deserves to wallow in his suffering, even though Jon had it just as bad if not worse. They had to divide them into “the one who’s a monster and losing himself” and “the one responsible for keeping the monster at a leash”. I apologize for the odd wording, i don’t know how else to phrase it.

Perfect opportunity to make fucked up monstrous tragic gays, and we got toxic teenage couple instead. The whole apocalyptic setting was TERRIFYINGLY UNDERUTILIZED!!!!! Also the s5 plot felt like they were just. Dragging the whole thing. The finale was cool, moral dilemma and all, but everything before that? Unremarkable. Questionable, even. I only liked the statements. (But tbh I mainly only like the statements.)