martin blackwood deffo had a freak character ai phase where he’d be like “heh… at least the bots don’t leave me… :)” and he wouldn’t actually talk to any real person for months. that’s actually his Lonely phase in my mind. that’s what happened s4. it is canon.
tma fans will create jmart dynamics from HELL with even less understanding of Martin’s character than even me (and that’s impressive because I actively and intentionally avoid anything about him) - as well as mischaraterizing Jon obviously - and then act surprised when I say that the romance and the overfocus on shipping in the fandom negatively impacted the podcast 😒
Like please guys I understand that y'all are starved of queer rep but PLEASE there’s so much more to the podcast and so much more interesting parts of this 🤧🤧
mostly just think he’s annoying and I don’t like that he’s abusive to his bf. that’s the summary and the rest is just waffle
The main issue for me is the treatment he gets in the fandom tbh. Every single character is scrutinized and all of their wrongdoings are highlighted in fan works, like Daisy’s killings, Jon’s feedings, Melanie’s stabbings. When creating something related to that character, most fans will include those actions, because it doesn’t matter whether they were ‘good’ or 'bad’ - what matters is those actions help outline the character’s personality.
But of course the shy stuttering man can do no wrong ever!!! Awe Martin baby boi cinnamon roll i want to hold him!!! Martin my sweetie I’ll treat you better than your mother!! I don’t think I’ve seen a single good take on Martin made by a Martin fan. They’re all so shallow, and the few I’ve seen that were kinda good and actually saw nuance in his character all romanticized his flaws.
To be fair this is a problem in all fandom spaces, and as long as fandom exists, there are going to be people who actively participate in it while only engaging with the source material at a base level, which results in them confining characters to tropes just so they can ship them. And dont get me wrong, i love shipping, but i love meaningful shipping. If i wanted to see one of those “scary but soft partner x overprotective boyfriend” tropes, I’d go to a bookstore and pick up the first position in the lgbtq+ section. I live for nuance babey!!!
And also there’s the issue of Martin being the stereotypical “shitty queer boyfriend” in canon. He expresses himself in a cartoonish manner, making himself appear almost childish despite being a grown man (annoying), wallows in his sadness but doesn’t allow Jon to do the same because he’s a monster, and is generally unsympathetic and unlikable. Oh sweetie I’m so sorry your mother hates you and you have depression, but it’s not a free pass to hate on your boyfriend.
I don’t like him not because he’s a bad person, but because people like him irl are generally kinda shitty. His brand of toxicity is everything but charming and imo thats the biggest crime a fictional character can commit. He’s boring.
I listen to TMA for the cool scary stories, not to hear a grown man whine about how he’s uncomfortable witnessing the horrors to his tormented sacrificial lamb of a boyfriend. I hate jmart-teaholding-whatever-you-call-it with a burning passion. They should’ve separated. Or argued more at least. I blame the writers plus the pressure on including queer rep in 2020. Rip season 5 you could’ve been so good
mostly just think he’s annoying and I don’t like that he’s abusive to his bf. that’s the summary and the rest is just waffle
The main issue for me is the treatment he gets in the fandom tbh. Every single character is scrutinized and all of their wrongdoings are highlighted in fan works, like Daisy’s killings, Jon’s feedings, Melanie’s stabbings. When creating something related to that character, most fans will include those actions, because it doesn’t matter whether they were ‘good’ or 'bad’ - what matters is those actions help outline the character’s personality.
But of course the shy stuttering man can do no wrong ever!!! Awe Martin baby boi cinnamon roll i want to hold him!!! Martin my sweetie I’ll treat you better than your mother!! I don’t think I’ve seen a single good take on Martin made by a Martin fan. They’re all so shallow, and the few I’ve seen that were kinda good and actually saw nuance in his character all romanticized his flaws.
To be fair this is a problem in all fandom spaces, and as long as fandom exists, there are going to be people who actively participate in it while only engaging with the source material at a base level, which results in them confining characters to tropes just so they can ship them. And dont get me wrong, i love shipping, but i love meaningful shipping. If i wanted to see one of those “scary but soft partner x overprotective boyfriend” tropes, I’d go to a bookstore and pick up the first position in the lgbtq+ section. I live for nuance babey!!!
And also there’s the issue of Martin being the stereotypical “shitty queer boyfriend” in canon. He expresses himself in a cartoonish manner, making himself appear almost childish despite being a grown man (annoying), wallows in his sadness but doesn’t allow Jon to do the same because he’s a monster, and is generally unsympathetic and unlikable. Oh sweetie I’m so sorry your mother hates you and you have depression, but it’s not a free pass to hate on your boyfriend.
I don’t like him not because he’s a bad person, but because people like him irl are generally kinda shitty. His brand of toxicity is everything but charming and imo thats the biggest crime a fictional character can commit. He’s boring.
I listen to TMA for the cool scary stories, not to hear a grown man whine about how he’s uncomfortable witnessing the horrors to his tormented sacrificial lamb of a boyfriend. I hate jmart-teaholding-whatever-you-call-it with a burning passion. They should’ve separated. Or argued more at least. I blame the writers plus the pressure on including queer rep in 2020. Rip season 5 you could’ve been so good
I know I’m not the one anon is asking but I saw an opportunity to rant and couldn’t resist 😋
unfortunately i’m like 160 episodes into tma and still don’t get the obsession with martin. like i don’t hate him but also- literally every other character and relationship is more interesting. also fanon version of him sucks lol. canon version of him is actually appealing to me in some ways, but considering fanon martin makes 90% of tma fic unreadable, i’m not too stoked about even having him tagged half the time.
“Martin matched Jon’s freak” Jon didn’t unwittingly pledge himself to the same patron as Elias and keep bones in his office and admit to the beauty of the apocalypse and spend an entire season obsessed with killing him for you to say that Jon’s freak is being matched by, of all people, Martin why are you enjoying killing people after I pushed you to kill people, you weren’t supposed to go against my cottagecore fantasy :( Blackwood.
Spicy take and I would absolutely love to hear other peoples opinions on this but I genuinely think that Martin and Jon would break up Somewhere Else. No matter where they end up, their relationship formed during a highly traumatic time and the few “domestic” moments we got and especially the apocalypse made them feel incompatible to me. Jon doesn’t like being fussed at and Martin seems to need to care for someone in that manner, not to mention (I know it was because the last season had problems for many reasons but still) Martin was often highly hypocritical and there was never any communication about that?? They never got the chance to really interact except in highly stressful situations and I feel like it would be unhealthy afterwards
Idk just my thoughts but im interested in hearing other peoples reasons why they like them together
I personally think that this take isn’t even spicy, just being mature adults and realizing you just Aren’t Compatible. Ngl I honestly think they should have never gotten together in the first place. Even if they’re trauma-bonded. Martin in MAG 163 was wholeheartedly ready to force Jon to never speak about what he was seeing, despite it clearly hurting Jon to See that much. He had to let it out and Martin said “Yeah well, tough. I am not going to be that for you.”
He didn’t even offer Jon an alternative, just told him he can’t speak about it to him, and it wasn’t like he was going to give Jon space. Jon had to offer up a different solution to placate Martin.
Like, I get you’re in a nightmare hellscape, but Jon is literally Seeing all the terror and feeling it and Knowing it while Martin is only seeing what is in front of him. Like, at least offer *something* up to help him.
Another thing I have noticed with their dynamic is that Jon helps Martin all the time, while Martin never offers anything to Jon unless it is to use him to kill someone he doesn’t personally like.
Ironic how one of TMA’s central narrative themes used to be about capitalism when it’s taken to its ugliest degree by parasitic people in power, yet, Rusty Quill in someways, became the very thing they swore to destroy when it comes to soulless corporate pandering of their own. I guess, they’re going to milk the only thing that keeps them relevant at this point even if TMA becomes a zombie wishing for someone to put it down. I don’t care about Martin stupid British tea party. Let TMA die.
Honestly would go crazy cause they’re both hypocrites. They would be together for maybe a week and then they would break up by saying “this relationship is not good for me…. i need some time to think and reflect….” and just fuck off into distance and never speak to each other again
i feel like so many people are kinda missing out on one of the takeaways from MAG200 (spoilers!!) because people tend to water martin’s character down. he and jon both believe that the ends can justify the means, and thats one of their central arguments in 199, because fundamentally they have the same values. and up until then, they’re main conflicts with each other was over which actions to take, though they both agreed action was in order. jon believes that the ‘end’, a universe where the fears have died, is justified by the 'means’, killing everyone on earth and forcing everyone to remain in fear domains. martin was on board with their freedom fight at first, having reservations that jon shared, but still choosing to spare people or command jon to kill them whenever he saw fit. as much as he sheugged off making his own decisions, he still chose to combat avatars and even ally with annabelle. throughout s5, we see him prove again and again that the end, presumably killing elias and ending the apocalypse, will be worth allowing people to suffer in the meantime. but when jon is included in the suffering people category, martin cant include that in his world view.
that is the major distinction in their philosophies- the value they place on jon’s life and the amount they each blame him. jon blames himself for everything, and from the beginning he has allowed himself to be put in danger and risk his life. initially, he doesnt want to die, but as s4 progresses, we see him grapple with valuing his life as he recognizes hes becoming less “human”- in the coffin, he even makes the gamble that he’ll did there. martin also has very low self worth, but holds jon on a pedestal (he always did), and once the ends can only be achieved through the means of killing jon or watching him suffer, martin struggles to fit that into his black and white philosophy.
it isnt that martin or jon are “weak” or have deeply contrasting world views, but they are unable to agree which exact actions are inexcusable, as murder never seemed to be an issue until it was martin holding the knife.
This is actually honestly why I’ve never liked Martin’s character or maybe that’s just coming from my incredibly logical analytical style
Something about the way Martin is always just taking care of Jon in ways that -for lack of a better term- ways that would make Martin feel better just makes me uncomfy. Jon needs a certain type of support that Martin just isn’t seeing or catering to.
Jon has gone through basically four seasons essentially on his own. Yeah there are a few heartwarming events in between but I feel like Martin is usually pretty quick to only see things from his own perspective or shut Jon out when he has an idea that Martin doesn’t agree with (Idk, maybe it’s my aromantic ass coming in but that whole scene where he would literally doom another dimension to go through what they did… because he loves his boyfriend too much seems kinda dense to me but I digress). Jon needs someone to really understand him and provide him validation for what he has had to deal with. Unlike what Martin does which is basically tell him ‘Yeah but I think that was stupid so your perspective isn’t important.
Thinking about how Martin’s so silly with his all being surprised about Jon, when the whole 198, 199, and 200 Jon is definitely using his “I feel guilty, time to sacrifice myself to save the world” voice like. Of course Jon was going to eschew the plan and sacrifice himself anyway. Of course. That’s why he apologized sincerely to all of them in the hallway after they make their plan. He knows he will betray them all one last time.
Thinking about how none of the other survivors really understand Jon. How none of them realize that deep down just how used Jon feels. He didn’t want to end the world, Jonah Magnus laid the groundwork for him as a child. It was inevitable, and Jon could do nothing about it. The description in 199 he gives to Martin of how it felt to read the words… even Martin when he was being led astray by Peter wasn’t quite this violently used.
Thinking about how it’s eerily similar, the guilt Jon has, to how someone feels after a sexual assault. That horrible inability to escape it. That it happened to you, and you could do nothing about it, and you just have to keep living with that body. And it’s tragic that no one took the time to understand how hurt he was over it all. They all had their preconceived visions of what Jon was and missed the core of Jon’s hurt and that’s why the series had to end like this. Because Jon needed to take his power back and this was the only way he knew how.
Thinking about how Basira and Melanie and Georgie and even Martin in those final moments talk about “we all make mistakes” but Jon didn’t make mistakes he was used and this distinction is so critical and they all miss it and god it kills me to hear him. He’s really just a shell of himself through most of S5 but particularly so in those last few episodes leading up to 200. That intro scene is the most fire Jon’s had since…. since the coma really.
Thinking about how when Martin throws out another “how much of you is even left now” its such a horrible take because it just makes Jon into this ‘other’ thing… like is Martin even in love with Jon? The eye is in him, sure, but Jon didn’t change or become different. The fears have always been marking him, using him for their own ends, that’s why Jonah picked Jon in the first place. How Jon’s truly been used by all the fears (which he has) so of course Jon isn’t going to come out of this okay.
Thinking about the slight wavering crack in Jon’s voice, even as the Eye takes hold of him, trying to convince Martin “It’s still me, I’m still Jon” trying desperately to believe it himself. And the reality is that he is still Jon. This is always who Jon has been - someone on the edge of monstrous, and when you’re standing on the edge all it takes is a push to fall.
Thinking about this interaction between Georgie and Jon from the episode ‘Infectious Doubts’… cause what the fuck is this???
“I came in here thinking you were Melanie,” versus “I could hear you talking about The Horrors, freak.”
Takes me the fuck out. Make the inconsistency make sense, fuckers, I dare you. Like. Seriously. Was she chill thinking Melanie was just sitting there listening back to the tapes? Cause I feel like she’d know the difference in a playback to someone speaking out loud. And with that being the case why did Jon being there shock her? This entire exchange is fucking with me. Feels like I’m on acid. Like I’m seeing things no one else is.
Can I share my opinion?
I think it makes sense and this whole thing was pretty much in Georgie’s character.
I think after abandoning Jon at the hospital and telling him, basically, “Screw you, I don’t want to do anything with you and I’d rather you died, but essentially idgf”, she came back to check on him, out of guilt or curiousity or residual desire to help - I don’t know, but it certainly backfired. I think she also stood there behind the door for some time, listening, knowing perfectly well that it was Jon’s office and Melanie was in another part of the building. But she covered it with a pretense “I was searching for Melanie” because she’d thrown Jon out of her life and it would be weird if she came to check on him, and I think she knew that. She also didn’t WANT him back in her life.
So, she came back to see Jon only to tell him “Screw you, I don’t want to do anything with you, idgaf” AGAIN, the second time, and frankly, to me it seems like mockery, like she was intentionally rubbing his face in the fact that he was alone. I don’t think she intended to mock him and rub it in his face, I think there was a part of her that felt guilt over how she left him and wished to know how he was going and it was her initial intent, but it certainly did came as mockery. She did go into his office intentionally, she made it seem like she cared, only for her to tell him “No.” And not only this, but Georgie also quite deliberately went to Martin and told him “Hey, you should abandon Jon too.” And I think when she went to Martin she also lied and pretended that she was just waiting around for Melanie?
She had no right to do any of those things. She had no right to come see Jon and ask him how things were going after she made it clear she didn’t want him in her life, she had no right to tell him she didn’t want him in her life AGAIN, after SHE decided to come see him, and above all else, she had no right to contact Martin and tell him how Jon is all bad, beyond help, everything is his fault and Martin should abandon Jon too because Jon “would only drag him down”.
Hey. Anyone is welcomed to share an opinion. I’m not some monarch you need to ask permission to speak to.
Now. Okay. So. I’m going to be completely honest. The whole time I was picturing this scene to be like. A situation where a writer walks away from their work for a while and forgets what they wrote, continuing and getting too far to see the inconsistencies. Cause when you listen to it, unless Georgie is a REALLY good actor, she does sound like she was surprised to hear him. And she wasn’t lying about meeting with Melanie. That time with Martin? Melanie shows up right after. So, whatever else? She didn’t lie about that.
So. Essentially. I was looking at it not really questioning the content? I was looking at it and questioning that she said two things that directly contradict each other.
I didn’t think that the contradiction was the point.
Cause yeah. You’re right about it all. She absolutely was checking in on him despite telling him to his face she never wanted to see him again. She absolutely was checking in to continue judging and berating him. She absolutely was checking in and stumbled into a situation where she could ‘warn’ someone about him. She was absolutely doing all that with zero self awareness or reflection.
We can see what she was doing. We can see the truth behind her actions. No matter how much she believed she wasn’t doing harm and that she was acting in her AND HIS best interests, a different story is being told.
There’s a point where a narrative doesn’t match the text and it’s being told that Georgie was making her own decisions based on a genuine desire to help and out of ignorance of the situation, that she realizes this at the eleventh hour and takes responsibility for it, and there being zero evidence to back any of it up. And I’m sick of being told otherwise.
I didn’t want Georgie to supplicate herself. I didn’t want Georgie to help Jon. I didn’t want ANY of them to help Jon. Their ‘help’ was the problem. I wanted her to go away and stay away. At least then she would’ve actually been telling the goddamn truth.
I think making the choices Jon and Martin made regarding the end of the end of the world out to be just about the other is extremely reductive.
Martin didn’t go with the Webs plan because it would ‘keep Jon with him.’ He went with the Webs plan cause it would cause the least amount of suffering. The ‘cosmic scale’ of human suffering he would have to ‘live with’ was HYPOTHETICAL. It wasn’t real. Not to him or the others. Saying that him wanting to stop the suffering of the people who, to him, ACTUALLY exist, was a byproduct of him wanting to ‘keep Jon with him’ is ignoring that even if Martin doesn’t care about others he still will do what he thinks to save them. Or buy enough time for someone else to. Why the FUCK are you making me DEFEND HIM. I fucking hate you.
On Jon’s end. Why do you think, if any of the others had gone up to stop him, that he wouldn’t do the exact same thing for them? Especially Georgie. I can understand not considering them cause they would leave his ass the moment the Panopticon went up, but let’s present a hypothetical. Say Georgie decided to stay or whatever. Convince him to try and release the fears. Whatever. Do you really think he would be fine and watch her burn with him? He was killing the world for hypotheticals. Would that not change when seeing the reality of it in front of him? With even some random person off the street? We can’t know the answer, but if you think he wouldn’t, you don’t know Jon at all.
Anyway. Convictions are for people not being tortured.
Placing all the weight of their choices when it comes to the suffering around them onto the other is reducing them to that relationship, ignoring their autonomy, and I hate you for it.
I feel like Martin could’ve been a really interesting character in tma but so much of the content about him is about jmart and being like “oh he’s so nice!”. Character who should be put on a high up shelf for a tiny bit while the fandom considers it a little maybe. He has a bunch of moments I really liked but I’m not a huge fan of the interpretations most people have.
Sorry. This is a semimonthly post at this point, but I’m still not over the fact that a story that could’ve been a fascinating exploration of how people react to fear in vastly different ways, shifting blames or clinging to normalcy or stepping over everyone else trying to claw their ways into some semblance of control, ended up doing barely anything with those themes for the sake of, uh, cute podcast gays, I guess.
You know I do like the TMA we got, it was pretty alright if definitely imperfect.
…But yeah. To be honest I am far more interested in the idea of what it would mean to 1. Live in a world where the Fears exist and 2. The implications of what being an avatar might mean, the questions of what makes a human being human and how different are “humans” and “monsters” anyway. (One of my favorite things in this series is actually how Elias refuses to define what being human means, which I find just. So interesting. But that’s a different post lol.)
I mean I get why people would like JonMartin, but to me shipping Jon with anyone, especially after S3, is almost necessarily toxic. My problem is that the “cute podcast gays” everyone sees don’t seem to really exist - they’re trauma-bonded to each other in a way that is honestly distinctly unhealthy no matter how much it’s dressed up with good cows.
Anyway. I would have liked less (at least blatant) romance and more focus on the worldbuilding implications here. It would have helped the later seasons especially IMO.
I like Jmart and Jonelias but I’ve recently gotten into JonGerry.
Martin is capable of loving Jon at his most human, which is good for tragedy and angst.
Elias is capable of loving Jon at his most monstrous, which is good for dark romance.
But it’s so easy to imagine Gerry, someone who grew up in the heart of the supernatural world while balancing inhumanity with humanity, as someone capable of loving both sides of Jon. No. 1 comfort ship right here.
in the same way as positioning jm as a healthy and happy couple is annoying, claiming they’re a pinnacle of “toxic yaoi” or whatever is annoying. no, they’re not. they’re simply not that interesting
there is a conversation to be had about their relationship in s4-5 specifically. how they stick with each other just to have some illusion of normalcy (which is especially important to Jon) despite not knowing each other all that well. how Martin treats him in s5 – belittling and dehumanizing him, laughing at him, enjoying his newfound powers, and then blaming Jon for enjoying it too. kinda fucked up! but the reason why I don’t find them very appealing to me (despite very much enjoying fucked up relationships) is that 1) they have no underlying chemistry that would make their suffering count, 2) all of that is not really a conversion on its own, it’s more of a specific example of how Jon’s monstrousness is being treated by most people, if that makes sense? like, Martin is not special for blaming Jon for being an avatar. almost everyone does that. the only thing that sets Martin aside from everyone else is that he is in a romantic relationship with Jon, and therefore, he feels like he has the right to treat Jon like his unruly pet. the fandom has picked up on it too, whether they know it or not – their relationship is often seen as Jon’s only redeeming, “human” quality (which is why there are so many “love makes you human” takes). how very brave Martin is for taking it upon himself to tame this morally inferior beast that Jon has become! (though, to be honest, Jon is being infantilised even in early-seasons depictions of him. and again, Martin is the only person actually capable of fixing him, of course)
it’s just an extrapolated version of what Jon has been hearing for seasons now. it’s a case study of how people treat him. but, again, it’s not very unique. there are people who have far more interesting relationships with Jon’s non-humanness – from Daisy and Helen to, of course, Elias
Martin pisses me the hell off. He should've stayed in The Lonely. At least then we wouldn't have to hear him wallowing in his sadness. "I'm so lonely.... No one really knows me..... I guess i deserve it...... I should've been nicer to my mum even tho she despised me..... that would've fixed everything for sure...... also Jon is a monster now and i don't like him" (literally him in mag 186).
He simultaneously hates himself and is an egoist and it wouldn't even be that bad if he wasn't such a mean CUNT!!!! "Oh yes king pop off! Martin deserves to be mean!!!" Yeah and he also deserves to take responsibility for that. But i guess he's the narrative's special little boy who can do no wrong, and so he is never held responsible and NO ONE calls him out on that because he's not a helpless cruel monster like Jon and hes such a supportive boyfriend because he makes tea and looks at cows or whatever. Kiss my ass.
And all fan content regarding martin depicts him like hes a fucking saint. Someone kick that man in the stomach and kidnap him a couple times and maybe then he would gain some sympathy for his boyfriend and would stop acying like hes better than him bc "he's morally correct" and "not a slave to his urges". Bffr
Hi I know some people struggle with listening comprehension and would like to recommend the transcripts for TMA!! :) They're really well put together and I think they'd help you with mischaracterization and stuff
ive actually comprehended it already just fine thanks!!!!
there’s just no way you’re not being deliberately condescending here. babe i just don’t think you should go around talking to people like they’re lowkey stupid it won’t make you very liked. it’s not miscommunication to say that Martin’s a shit boyfriend when he spends all of s5 belittling and bullying and hitting Jon. like that’s abusive and if you can see that then maybe you need your eyes checked mate. or maybe your brain.
Liking a character has NOTHING to do with comprehension of said character. You can analyze the man inside and out and still hate him because thats YOUR PERSONAL OPINION and everyone is entitled to one 😋 someone is just mad that you like petty hating!!
I’ve just realized what bugs me the most when I’m comparing canon and fanon Martin. It’s the fact that in canon he never really changed.
I’ve said this before, but right now it really hit me. The Martin we see in early seasons is exactly the same Martin we see in season 5. He had always been like this.
I feel like the reason people talk about his “change” in season 5 is because up to that moment we’ve mainly heard Martin interacting with Jon, the man he had a crush on. Of course he’s gonna be stuttering and awkward! But when talking with Tim for example, Martin is his usual self - unless Jon is mentioned, of course.
Also there was this whole thing with the Lonely, where he got depressed and isolated himself from everyone. But for some reason it wasn’t a catalyst for his character development - when he got out of it, when he got out of the Lonely, he stayed the same as before. He just gained some self-awareness.
Season 5 Martin acts this way because at that point he has an idea of what’s happening and isn’t so anxious about his surroundings anymore, and, like every person that’s not being absolutely crushed by guilt at that time (Jon), his main objective is to get revenge for all the suffering he had to go through. Every other person from the archive crew would’ve done the same if they were in his position.
And there’s also the matter of him falling out of love with Jon / starting to see him more as a weapon, a monster, or just “his boyfriend” rather than a person.
ive seen your jmart hate and analysis (and i think its starting to sway me), so i ask you… how do you feel about jon/gerry ?? ik they only have one episode together but even then (to me) their chemistry was so good, plus how gerry seems to be FAR. more accepting of jon’s avatarhood than martin in s5. for example when gerry asks “do you like it?” in reference to Compelling people and his role as archivist and jon replies “i suppose i do,” gerry doesnt seem phased at all. he rolls with it. and dont even get me started on jon promising to burn his page.
also if you dislike jon/gerry i wont attack <3 im just a big fan of them hoping to discuss . if you dont like them, who do you ship jon with (if anyone)?
Ooooohhhh. JonGerry. JonGerry my beloved. Imo best Jon ship cause they fit together so perfectly.
Gerry is almost a polar opposite to Martin (especially concerning their respective relationships with Jon). He was practically raised among the Fears. They’re his reality. His entire life was dedicated to them - from tracking down Leitners and disrupting the rituals with Gertrude, to being Eye-aligned himself. He is painfully aware of the Fears’ impact on the world, and, more importantly, the people around him.
He and Jon would work really well together, both as friends and as partners, because when it comes to it they’re quite similar.
Both Jon and Gerry were used by others for nearly the entirety of their lives. Jon was a puppet of the Web since he was a little kid, being subtly nudged and poked so that eventually he would become the Archivist and doom the world; he was also manipulated by Elias during his time in the Institute. Gerry was a tool for his mother; being isolated from his peers because of his upbringing, he had no choice but to become involved in her work. He hunted down Leitners, at first for her, and, when he realized the degree of Mary’s selfishness, he begun to seek them out in order to destroy them. Later, when he met Gertrude and started working at the Institute, once again he became the assistant; and while Gertrude was significantly kinder to him than Mary, he still ended up getting used and discarded.
Gerry hated his mother for her obsession with the Leitners, but couldn’t run away from her because she raised him in the knowledge of the Fears. Because of that no other person could understand him or his point of view, so he had no choice but to stay. Jon grows to hate Elias because he’s the one who (indirectly) caused him to become a monster, and yet Jon still would turn to him for help and advice because only Elias ever truly understood him.
Gerry would be much more accepting of Jon’s avatarhood because he himself had a very similar experience, and thus he’d be capable of understanding him, sympathizing with him, and not just call him a cruel monster like most of the cast. He would be able to understand Jon at his worst, and thus be capable of appreciating him at his best. Other people see Jon’s human side as the only part that’s truly “him” (“How much of you is even left now?” - The Jon that Martin is in love with and Avatar Jon are regarded as two different people), but Gerry would actually have knowledge of how the Fears work. He would be aware of how much the “human” Jon and “avatar” Jon are intertwined. He would see Jon as a whole. He wouldn’t divide the man into “pre-avatar” and “post-avatar” categories, because he knows it doesn’t work like that. He knows that it wasn’t Jon’s fault he became an avatar, and wouldn’t blame him for it.
To summarize I think they’re perfect for eachother. They get eachother so well ughhh. Can’t really say much about their interaction because I don’t remember it that well, but I recall it being significantly smoother than whatever Jon had going on with Martin.
Since I’ve already discussed the topic of JonGerry, obviously i have to mention JonGerryMartin as well. And, precisely, i need to say why i don’t like this ship.
As I’ve said, Jon and Gerry would work together well because they have a lot in common and would understand eachother. But i cannot fathom why would you want to add Martin to the mix. (not counting the fans that just see it as an extension of jmart)
First of all, Martin and Gerry are practically opposites, especially when it comes to their morals and worldviews. Martin is critical of the Fears and sees avatars as monsters. Gerry on the other hand sees the Fears as much more complex, because he was raised in the knowledge of them.
From what I’ve gathered listening to Jon-Martin interactions in s5, i have reasons to believe that Martin wouldn’t be interested in learning about the Fears, as he actively isolates himself from topics that upset him. The only basis for a Gerry-Martin bond that i can see is their difficult relationships with their mothers. Admittedly, that’s a pretty solid basis for a friendship or just a connection in general. But aside from that, there’s nothing else that Gerry and Martin have in common. Plus there’s this whole jealousy thing on Martin’s side, that would either cause him to try and isolate Jon from any other relationship not involving himself, or he would just stop talking to Jon entirely because “he’s better off without me… he and Gerry get on so well.. i should just leave…”
What I’m saying is, in order for this ship to work out somehow, you’d need to rewrite at least one character completely. It’s like trying to ship Elias with Jude Perry - i cannot think of a single scenario in which this would work out.
I don’t even know what it is about Martin, but I absolutely hate his guts. Like there’s nothing he’s explicitly done to warrant my hatred, but his vibes are just rancid.
He plays dumb and makes other people sympathize with him. He’s all like “I’m sorry 🥺👉👈 I’m trying my best, I just want to make you proud” you’re a grown man, stop acting so incompetent, don’t play the victim for normal criticism from your manager. (And yes, I’m talking about Jon. There is no way Jon decided to use Martin as his punching bag and yelled at him all the time, was he likely harsher than necessary? Probably, he was probably kinda rude and passive aggressive, but he definitely didn’t yell at Martin. You can tell how surprised Martin was when Jon yelled at him about Trevor Herbert, that was likely the first time Jon ever raised his voice at him.)
And here’s the thing, I feel like I should like him, I grew up having to be a caretaker for my mother, so I feel like I should be able to relate or understand him, but I just… don’t. In theory I can understand that Martin is manipulative because he had to be to his mother, I can understand that, but in practice, I cannot sympathize with him at all, and just kinda hate him.
Also he just feels very ableist to me, he gives off the impression of someone who always knows what’s best, would tell someone with depression to try not being sad, would tell a disabled person that they’re just not try hard enough, will always play the victim, especially if the other person is “mentally unstable” or something. (He’d be one of those caregivers that constantly demeans his patient, but everyone would call him so “strong” and “supportive” for dealing with them)
I always hate the interpretation of Martin that he’d be so great and caring and understanding to Jon, as if he wouldn’t 100% just tell Jon he’s not trying hard enough. I mean that’s half of season 5, just Martin telling Jon he’s not trying enough, not trying to help enough, not trying to be happy enough, not trying to be human enough. I’m pretty sure there’s not a single time that Martin tries to understand Jon and where he’s coming from. He’ll try to force Jon to say what he’s feeling, but he never actually cares to understand.
If Martin wasn’t doing his weird Lonely arc thing in season 4 he would have been right there beside Melanie and Basira telling Jon that “actually, all you have to do to overcome addiction is to stop being addicted. It’s not that hard.”
Anyways, sorry for such a long rant, also to be clear, it’s not as if I just sit around and gnash my teeth thinking about how much I hate him, I just wanted to get this off my chest. If you enjoy Martin as a character more power to you, I just can’t stand the guy.
YEA I DEF GET THIS Oh my god ok I. I like him. He fascinates me. He is a fucking cunt whos very bad at understanding how other ppl feel and thinks he knows best and this is SHOWN in s5. I like him a lot but goddamn he has FLAWS. SO MANY GOOD GOD. The fandom ignores it and it pisses me off so much bc theyre all so quick to make georgie jons horrible ex who didnt understand him for some reason WHEN NOTHING IN CANON SHOWS THAT BUT EVERYTHING SHOWS THAT MARTIN EASILY COULD FILL THAT ROLE. Sry anyways this is a frequent annoyance lol - rosette
It really upsets me that despite the fact that all the characters in tma are morally gray, the fandom is still trying to look at everything through the prism of black and white. This leads to a misinterpretation of the characters, their stories and motivations. I think it's mostly about Martin and Jonah. How the fandom sees the first one as innocent despite all his actions, and justifies frankly unhealthy behavior. And at the same time, Jonah is credited with all the sins of humanity (I won't be surprised if someone says that he once ate a baby lol) just because he is an antagonist. And I'm not saying that he never did anything wrong. But when fandom makes him a capitalist or a tory (or a r*pist, what??????), I start to wonder if we listened to the same podcast. Just... why?
I dislike most fanon portrayals of jmart, it seems too much woobified to me
By s5 Martin is stubborn, petty, condescending, blaming jon for things he can't control. S1 Jon was mean and emotionally constipated and by s5 he's full of guilt acting like a bit of a doormat with everyone because he convinced himself he deserves it. The more i relisten (esp s5 with so much jmart development) the more it's obvious that they are extremely terrible at communicating because they're both traumatized as shit and never had the chance to learn properly because yk, fear apocalypse and stuff, not a prime example of a healthy learning environment, but that often shows up in the form of not so healthy behaviors with each other. Understandable because the situation is horrible.
I like them that way. They're complex and feel more real. But then i go into the fandom and it's a bit... Eh? Ykwim? It's like they forgot about everything but the cute lovey dovey parts or the sad parts. I mean fair, fluff is nice especially after mag200 and we all love some good angst, but atp it's a majority of the fandom portrayal 😭 I can't engage too much with jmart content, because a lot of it feels wildly mischaracterized. It's a shame because their character and dynamic is really interesting to me
it kinda feels misogynistic the way you're always hating on martin (who is pretty much accepted in the fandom to be a trans man!) for inherently female characteristics and things afabs (people who are socialised as women) get mocked and insulted for throughout our entire lives
you genuinely cannot be real. there’s so much to unpack here i actually don’t even know where to start
Literally what. First of all it’s a HEADCANON so It’s not even true. Second of all you’re not hating him for being a feminine softie of whatever youre hating him for being an asshole!! Someone projected too hard onto Martin and they took it personally
honestly had they seriously wanted to explore the concept of free will in tma the web’s plan should have failed and jon should have carried his project through. there was an interesting discussion there to be had abt him choosing to damn his own world: was it out of his desire to save the universe? out of spite not to comply with the web’s demands? was the pull of the eye so strong that his actions were only partially his own? and yet.
Martin “I’ve never heard you laugh” Blackwood and Jonathan “I’ve never heard you say anything funny” Sims. This post is about them having no chemistry; do not derail.
Only coming here to complain about M*rtin but. "Let's get our murder on" sounds so gross and tactless. i know it's the apocalypse but this is just an awful way to behave.
Martin is very black-and-white in his thinking and has been since the start, by which I mean back when he was well-written and I liked him. Sometimes that was a strength (spiders are environmentally important, so you cannot kill them; Jon is a good person, so Tim cannot accuse him), but more often than not, especially in later episodes, it is his greatest flaw.
The police are there to keep the peace, so how could they be criminals? Avatars are bad, so getting our murder on isn’t even a question. I don’t want my boyfriend to stop being my boyfriend, and I don’t want to die, so I won’t even consider his viewpoint with the fate of several realities at stake. Elias is my enemy, so anyone who isn’t his ally is probably my friend. Many more examples exist. I think this is one of his core traits and accounts for many occasions in which he doesn’t have patience for Jon’s attempts to explain very complex realities.
If you had, would you have told them? Would that have, have changed what happened?
Me when I’m so tactful about my partner’s self-victim-blaming and feelings of guilt: Would you have let them kill you to prevent this? Would you? Jon. Jon, would you have killed yourself for real?
inb4 anyone raises concerns over elias being “toxic” for jon the problem is that elias is “toxic” because he is sculpting a mortal man into a godshead for a ritual to birth the world anew. martin is toxic because he’s whiny, emotionally disregulated, and can’t even appreciate jon’s sense of humor in a pre-apocalyptic office setting. the problem is not whether je or jm would win at couple’s counceling. the problem is that jon is an avatar of the dread power that looms over the ruins of his former world, chief amongst its peers, and he’s playing house with a boring ex-coworker who he doesn’t even like.
@batemanscaped YES. GOD. the person i just reblogged who talked abt papercut theory nailed it. i have not personally been turned into a living idol of fear by a man who has devoted a dozen lifetimes to the pursuit. i have had shitty, clingy, manipulative partners who openly resented me. “lol”
they are sooooo similar like, their humor. their values. their interests. they have an established ease to the cadence of their conversations. i hate the prevalence of no fears aus lol BUT the only characters from the whole show who would maintain their existing relationship in a world w no fear entities would be jon and elias. also elias literally WORSHIPS jon he crafts him into the perfect image of their shared god. and before and beyond that, he just really likes the boy.
I have to say, jonelias is like the only ship I have where I don’t want to just ignore the canon relationship, I would be very happy if Jon left Martin for Elias
Actually I want to expand on this. According to paper cut theory, when reading fiction people tend to empathize with things that have happened to them or people they know over fantastic things, even if objectively the fantastic thing is way worse. So people will flinch watching a TV character get a paper cut, but probably won’t when that same character gets decapitated. I have not personally been turned into a fear monster by my boss before, but I have definitely known people like Martin.
I just get such a sense that Martin doesn’t actually like John, he likes some ideal of John he thought up when they met. He doesn’t understand John’s sense of humor, he doesn’t agree with his principles, every time they’re in the same room in s5 they seem to argue with each other. They have pretty much no common interests. Elias is an awful person in pretty much every regard, but at least he seems to like the John that actually exists.
i see your death of the author and raise you: death of the fandom, for when other fans and the content they produce are so unbearably bad that you divorce yourself entirely from the fanbase except for one or two Trusted Mutuals™️
i always saw martin as representing humanity including the horror of it as opposed to the horrors of avatars/monsters that much of the podcast goes on about. hes not the initial thing that traumatizes a person hes represents the callousness towards victims who are now "monsterous" due to their trauma. he offers comfort sure but he never can relate and frequently judges jon.
like that was very much my take after finishing the show with how it framed elias/avatars vs martin/humanity as things for jon to chose between. and i was surprised to see all the dickriding for martin when i looked at the fandom because hes not meant to be a remotely good person. you should NEVER hit your partner idc the circumstnce!
yknow that kinda hell yeah actually i get the vibe actually. i typically don’t like any exploration of his character (it’s always bad) or anything that could be close to sympathising with him but you can live i suppose. notice how martin haters always have the best takes? 😇😇
Y’know it fucks with me how much Jon being an orphan informs everything about him, considering it’s a throwaway aspect of his backstory that is never mentioned or talked about again.
Do you think that’s where his need to know started? Like. Even before Mr. Spider. Do you think that when he started to realize and recognize that he had a different home life than his peers that he started to ask his grandmother questions? Questions she would refuse to answer. Like. How high was his father when he fell? What routine surgery was it that ended his mother’s life? Questions only a child would ask because a child’s thought would be ‘what if I ended up that high up or needing that surgery?’ How could he prevent his own death unless he knew what to avoid? But because she wouldn’t answer, would tell him he was being tactless and rude, he would seek it elsewhere. Giving him a lifelong need to research and know on his own terms, because he was taught no one else would give it to him. Which also lead to being unable to GRIEVE HIS PARENTS. She never talked about it, from what I remember of his personal statement. She was too wrapped up in her own grief, her own pain, to care for his. And what else would lead Jon to his guilt but the fact he never learned GRIEF.
I’ve already said I’m going to the mental hospital willingly, you can stop pulling on me.
It seems really clear to me. Don’t make the switch. Everyone in this world does and you force the Fears to fucking eat each other. Kill them. Otherwise they’re going to kill billions more and oh by the way this is theonly way they can be killed.
If billions are going to die EITHER WAY and this is the only way that their killers can go down with them pull the trigger Piglet.
But no. Somehow these other universe people are “hypothetical”, whereas the billions of people you never will meet on this current Earth are somehow realer.
Stay in the dying world. Sink your teeth into it and when you die know you are tearing a bloody wound into your killer.
“I don’t agree that it’s clearcut that it’s worth the risk of sacrificing everyone on earth in the hope that this is the only place where the fears currently exist.”
–
I actually don’t care if the Fears exists elsewhere. I quite frankly assume they do exist in multiple different versions all across the infinite dimensions. The math doesn’t change.
Option 1: Die with the world. The Fears eat 8 billion people + the millions of others they ate in the past. The Fears have consumed (Reality 1′s past millions) + (Reality 1′s victims caught in the Fearpocalypse)
Option 2a: Set the Fears loose. The Reality 1 Fears eat millions in the alternate reality in the years it takes for someone to succeed in that reality by bringing them in and they eat however many billions are on Earth at that time. The next reality does not pass them on. The R1 Fears have now consumed (Reality 1′s past millions) + (Reality 1′s casualties in the Fearpocalypse) + (Reality 2′s past millions) + (Reality 2′s victims caught in the Fearpocalypse)
Option 2b: Set the Fears loose. The Reality 1 Fears eat millions in the alternate reality in the years it takes for someone to succeed in that reality by bringing them in and they eat however many billions are on Earth at that time. This reality passes the Fears on. The R1 Fears have now consumed (Reality 1′s past millions) + (Reality 1′s casualties in the Fearpocalypse) + (Reality 2′s past millions) + (Reality 2′s casualties in the Fearpocalypse) + (Reality 3′s past millions) + (Reality 3′s casualties in the Fearpocalypse) + do you see where I’m going with this?
If we assume there are other Fears it still doesn’t change the math. Either the Fears can only infect world that don’t have other Fears lurking about, in which case every single death is directly attributable to our Heroes, or the Fears can infect worlds that do have other Fears in them, in which case our Heroes have only added to the death toll of that world until the Fearpocalypse occurs.
No matter how you slice it, allowing the Fears to live only adds to the suffering.
Even if there is NEVER another Fearpocalypse in any other reality.
If another Fearpocalypse doesn’t happen, there is no way to kill or stop the Fears. They will keep picking off one-in-thirty year after year, millennia after millennia. Eventually the total will outweigh Reality 1′s death toll.
The whole world dying in only 1 reality is the LOWEST death toll possible. Therefore, it is the only ethical option.
Thinking about how Basira has to believe that passively allowing murder/horror is different and better than causing it yourself, because if they’re the same, then she’s responsible for all of Daisy’s crimes.
Sorry for the impromptu Martin hating, but his treatment of Jon in this episode is frankly and inarguably vile. He keeps treating Jon like he’s a spoiled child when he is (1) at the mercy of someone who very well could be their enemy and (2) for the first time in a long time deprived of powers that he depends on.
To do this scene with self-awareness they should have made Salesa say “Ha! Are you sure you two are dating?” after one of Martin’s remarks and have Martin respond with utter confusion.
It’s rare that a single post is an instablock from me, but this is just depressing. For Jon’s fatal flaw to be his curiosity would mean that, what, the story has a moral and it is that you should accept things as they are instead of interrogating the reality you live in? That is the podcast’s grand statement, “Don’t ask questions”? It’s not merely depressing, actually; it’s reactionary anti-intellectualism.
Also, “let love take precedence over knowledge and logic”? If you really want to get down to it and talk in terms of good and bad and life lessons, as the post implicitly does by mentioning fatal flaws and “changing for the better”, it’s important to remember that this isn’t just a story about two people in love (and I’ve let rivers of ink run on this blog about how badly written Jonmartin is as a loving relationship). There were entire realities as stake, so no, letting love for one individual take precedence over the knowledge of what will happen and the logical conclusions you draw from it is not positive character development; it’s selfish. I like selfish characters; I’m all for selfish, but not when they’re not acknowledged as such by the narrative or, in this case, by critics.
And as a closing remark, I will die on this hill: Jon did not change for the better. He’s mean at the start of the podcast because it is a front he is putting up. Georgie knew him before the Institute and after his presumed “positive character development” and never made a remark in the vein of “Hey, you’re nicer now.” And even if that were not the case, I think a slightly mean boss trying to be impressive is better than a traumatized man in a shitty relationship who dooms uncountable other realities because his partner is about to die.
also actually like litterally why is fanon martin a fucking uwu mashmallow baby when we never see him be nice to anyone really 😭 'martins so kind and loving' when??? to who??? by making tea??? babe thats the basic british hosting instinct hes still a rude cunt
literally oh my godddd like yeah ok he makes tea for people ?? ok? i make tea for my mum too doesn’t mean i like her it’s just the polite thing to do 😨
like literally you’re so right we get TOLD martin’s a sweetheart cutiepie or whatever but like ?? Is he ever actually nice? … like at all?
People will hear a character with a high voice and a stutter and immediately jump to the conclusion that they must be a cute softie, or worse, transmasc.
I’ve never seen it being discussed but mag199 is one of the most important episodes in the show and is crucial for understanding Jon’s character and his choices.
Characters here need to make a choice and everyone gives their take on situation. Except for Jon. The first people to talk are everyone present in the room and Jon is the LAST person who says something here.
And when he says that they actually have more options, his words immediately get dismissed by Melanie and Martin. Through the whole conversation the only words Jon gets to say are some unnecessary corrections and weak protests. But he never gets to say his piece fully.
Again, the person who’s the only one able to change world back, is the last one who gets a word to say.
From Jon’s POV, here he is, again, viewed only as a tool. Here he is, again, not the one to actually decide what to do with the world. He is, again, forced to do something he doesn’t want and his own will does not matter.
And this is crucial for his actions in mag200. He never wanted the option everyone else agreed on, and still he is expected to follow the path that was carved out for him. He never chose to be marked by the Web, he never chose to end the world. And he didn’t want to let the fears free. This choice was made for him.
But still, for the first time HE is the one holding all the cards now and finally, FINALLY be the only one to decide how to play them.
And he does just that.
i think the tags from @cosmic-crunch should be immortalized
It was in the way your grandmother hesitated when calling your name, as though primed for a different one, and the fact you weren’t him wore at her as surely as you did simply by existing.
From a young age you knew you were cursed.
It was in the way that, by the will of some cosmic force, you weren’t allowed to keep your parents. Not even the memories, as you were just too young to have any that last aside from their ends.
From a young age you knew you were hated.
It was in the way that someone ten years your senior never once relented in causing you harm over the years you knew him, your grandmother never once intervening despite its regularity.
From a young age you knew the world was unjust.
It was in the way it should have been you, not the one who hurt you, to die. It should have been you and the fact you lived was a crime you could never repay but with your future as collateral.
From a young age you knew you weren’t meant for this world and you feel like everyone else knows it too.
It’s in the way they talk about you behind your back and in front of your face. No matter how civil you try to be. No matter how gregarious and magnanimous. You know you deserve nothing and so do they.
So you stop. Stop trying to be wanted or loved. Stop trying to care for anyone but yourself. It never got you anywhere anyway. Instead you turn to knowing and learning. Maybe you can understand why what happened to the poor unfortunate who took your place happened. Maybe you can understand why the world is unjust. Maybe knowing will give you a place in the world, no matter how small or awful.
Your name is Jonathan Sims and there was never any hope for you to not become what you did. It was already written for you before you even started.
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