I DO think The Magnus Archives fucked up by presenting Jonmartin as a healthy couple, not simply because I don’t believe they were very functional at all, but also because having them remain the pillar of hope throughout the season sabotaged the supposed horror tragedy. If your audience is describing the final act of your horror tragedy as a honeymoon road trip, perhaps it’s time to ask yourself what went wrong.
i feel like it’s a personality test for tma fans which fears you associate with characters who don’t canonically have super obvious ones (ie hunt daisy, eye john, lonely martin)
which fear do you associate tim stoker with. no “none” option. if you HAD to pick one
these options are all the most common ones/ones i’ve seen associated with him in the fandom but if you have a different one i am greatly intrigued to hear
In honor of JonMartin week, allow me to share a jmart hot take:
Canon jmart is kinda toxic ngl. Like not in the sense of “oh you’re so bad for each other please break up!” But in the sense that they would benefit immensely from some couple’s counseling.
True. They wouldn’t go tho
They would attend one meeting, get told that their relationship is actively harming the both of them, and then leave and never return or do any further reflection
im still stuck on the very beginning episodes of season 3 because the fact that im going to have to hear MARTIN reading the statements and not Jon kinda turned me off (i think martin reads them? its been a month or two since i last listened to tma)
I would’ve sacrificed Martin so fast for another ten seconds of Sasha. Or Tim. Or Gerry. Or Jurgen Leitner, I don’t care. I can’t believe we lost so many great characters and yet fucking Martin persisted.
partner ( @nervous-young-man ) is telling me ab martin (tma) and i need to know why more people dont fking hate this guy?!? yall r seeing how he treats jon and ur turning a blind eye…?🤨 mmkay
partner ( @nervous-young-man ) is telling me ab martin (tma) and i need to know why more people dont fking hate this guy?!? yall r seeing how he treats jon and ur turning a blind eye…?🤨 mmkay
THIS IS WHAT I’M FUCKING SAYING (you are so real for this op) (tiny rant under cut idk how much you care about spoilers but S5 SPOILERS AHEAD)
Martin has the gall to paint himself as the victim in s5 when its Jon that got kidnapped, beaten, abused, burned, and assaulted both physically and mentally multiple times throughout the show.
Meanwile he just got depressed and had to work a desk job for a while. Peter Lukas didn't even do that much to him, he isolated himself because of his own decision. That man's hypocrisy has no bounds
you’re kinda so right and i think ill love you forever. like im sorry you had to isolate yourself a little and work an overpaid kinda easy job but like?? id do that too it sounds kinda great sign me up man please please
this is actually a very popular opinion for most people who can at the very least fathom the concept of hating martin. i also think it’s the wrong opinion.
People always like to complain about other fans because then they can cast blame onto some like nondescript entity and like a strawman of martin mischaracterizers so that they can ignore martins actual flaws as a character and ignore how much of a puppet he is as a character and how he flip flopped so limply yet extremely in s5 purely due to the actual writing
Martin was, in my opinion, kinda a bad character, but people don’t actually talk about that they cast the blame away from the writing and instead to the ghost of a concept of evil martin misunderstanders so that they can feel more intellectually superior in their own interpretations when the character can’t even really hold that much weight by himself without the people projecting onto him purely because of the way the writers clearly didn’t really understand where to truly go with him.
He was kind of a shell of a character by the end, just a distorted husk of his potential as a character, no more than a weird hypocritical confusion of ideas and ideals and motivations without real clear direction or purpose other than exposition and the idea of a romantic relationship with Jon and maybe some semblance of overinflated humanity he’s still getting snappy and overdefensive and territorial about ((because he thinks it makes him superior to Jon and everyone else)), but even that wasn’t really interesting 🙄
Sometimes I genuinely wonder if Jonah had a plan for Jon in s5, because surely mr Jonah I-have-a-plan-for-everything Magnus wouldn’t have just gone “mmmh yes, imma create an extremely powerful Archivist and trick him into bringing about the apocalypse” and not sit back for a moment and realise all the glaringly obvious flaws in that plan.
I get it! Life has been terrible for them. And I feel SO bad for everything that happened for for everything they went through! Seriously!
But it was not Jon’s fault and they can stop acting like it was.
Melanie acts as id Jon forced her to join the institute. HE WASNT EVEN HERE!! And Tim and Martin tried to stop her from doing it! It was her own, free decision and yes, she had no idea what she got herself into, but again: NOT JON’S FAULT!!!
And yes, I dont even want to imagine what pain she went through from the bullet lodged into her leg for months. But Jon had her best wishes in mind when he and basira took it out and she said herself, that there was no other way.
But she still treats him HORRIBLY for it!!!
And Basira!
I get that she was alone and had to stop trusting anyone. I get that she was grieving and hurt and scared.
But, once again: not jon’s fault.
Yes, he asked for her help with research for gertrudes death but nothing more. The fact that she is trapped in the institute is Elias fault and his alone.
And yes, Jon is not completely human anymore and that scares her. I get that!
But he DID NOT ASK FOR IT!!!
Neither did he choose to be away for 6 months!
He was in a COMA!!!
Basira is acting like he CHOSE to be away and leave them alone!! He did NOT
So can she PLEASE stop keeping everything a secret from him??? He wants to help but he CANT!
Especially since he’s the only one who wants and actually tries to free Daisy!!
If you disagree with me, PLEASE tell me! I want to like them!!! And I did!! In the last season I loved them!!! But this annoys me soo much!!!
I would like to extend an apology. When I first found your account, I made the vapid assumption that you were a Martin hater just to play devil’s advocate or engage in counter-culture somehow and wrote you off. Now I think I’ve come to genuinely appreciate the work you do for the TMA fandom. You are a national treasure, Tumblr user martinblackwoodhater.
By constantly reminding Jon that he's a monster, Martin is actually causing him to get worse. And it's so odd??
Since he loved Jon when he was human, you'd think that he would do everything in his power to try and help the man to return to his old self. But he purposely makes Jon worse by belittling him.
He uses Jon to feel better about himself - Jon's an avatar almost fully consumed by the Power, and he's an avatar only halfway. By reminding Jon how far he's gone he also simultaneously highlights that he's the more human one out of the two of them.
Even when he makes use of Jon's abilities, it's purely for his own gain. The killing spree? His idea. The people he wanted Jon to kill were people he had a personal grudge against. But he suddenly does a 180 and acts like it was Jon's thing when they're in Jude Perry's domain, because he doesn't have anything personal against her, and so suddenly it's Jon who has to decide.
Martin's selfish. And selfishness is not a foundation for a healthy relationship. It isn't even a foundation for an interesting relationship! He acts like a toxic parent!
truth truth truth like king im sorry you had a somewhat shit mother but like oh my godddd so did everyone else and they weren’t SO insufferable 🙄🙄
also him acting like his mother and that being the reason his relationship is awful i begrudgingly admit could make him more defendable but the problem is that just literally is not written into the podcast like at all? like whatsoever?? and it just feels like such an odd choice because saying it out loud like yeah that’s so obvious
Annabelle Cane is a waste of character because she never threatened to fill Jon with spiders. she threatens Martin and not Jon?? the best character to get filled with spiders?? if I were a Web avatar, the things I would do to Jon Archivist belong on my nsfw side blof <3
I LISTENED TO 173 AND 174 AND OH MY FUCKING GOD I'M SO DONE WITH THIS GUY. HOLY SHIT (pulling out the transcripts for this one)
HE CAN'T FUCKING DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT YOU DICK!!! he has told you this multiple times and calling him monstrous and essentially saying he's a terrible/shit person for not being able to do anything is fucking terrible and I think you should go die.
WHAT THE FUCK??? WHAT THE FUCK??? "Thank you fir not hitting me this time." AND YOU EXPECT ME TO BELIEVE AND BE COMPLACENT WITH THE LIE THAT THIS SHIP IS HEALTHY??? HOLY FUCKING SHIT
the bitterness in Jon's voice towards the end... oh my god. it's so fucking justified because your boyfriend is using you like a tool (which is what I have gathered from their relationship in s5, it's just martin using Jon - to be his personal little all-powerful murderer, to inform him of what's going on from time to time (when he isn't electing to instead ignore it like an idiot) - and then ignoring him and treating him awfully for the rest. god) but oh my god jon's voice at the end there fucking breaks me because he sounds so tired and done with Martin's bullshit (FOR ONCE) but he shouldn't have to be. I'm so sick of martin and his entire character I hate him so much.
also he's always so annoyed and exasperated with Jon but why? he seems to constantly be annoyed and sick of him and I don't understand- for the most part Jon's literally just either doing what Martin tells him to, does what he needs to do, or talking to martin in a way that is so fond and loving and martin DOES NOT deserve it at all.
^^ especially in MAG 174
what the fuck is wrong with you? maybe because he doesn't want to kill people? because (unlike you) his first and foremost wish isn't to cause harm and pain?
why does he want to be so controlling? one thing that really got me about this episode and this dialogue specifically is that martin sounds so much like those cliche toxic girlfriends in american media, the ones that are super controlling and insist you're cheating/go through your phone/cut you off from your friends because they don't trust you WHY DID THEY MAKE HIM SOUND LIKE THAT???? this is not a healthy relationship I'm so done how does the fandom see them in a positive light? how can they be so ignorant?
and finally:
man :( man I really thought we were gonna get an apology- or even just an acknowledgement of his behaviours!! (not that it'd matter; he wouldn't be able to compensate for all the shitty things he's managed to do in JUST 12 EPISODES) but I was kind of hopeful! but alas. no. he sees a chance to shift the blame onto someone else and he takes it as soon as he can with a "(small laugh)" (even though jon willingly taking it is obviously just cause of his incredibly poor self-worth (which martin is not helping btw))
I'm so pissed about this :( I'm so not happy with this :(( why would they do this?? genuinely what were they thinking when they wrote s5 martin? they made his entire character so... malicious. I hate it, and I hate him, thank you for coming to my ted talk. (I'm really scared/sad to continue because I really wanna finish the podcast but I don't like martin's character at all and listening to him makes me sick and it ruins the entire experience)
there’s nothing more for me to add to this tbh but you’re so right and i have no idea how the fandom has such a severe misunderstanding of jmart as a relationship at all
I’ve just realized what bugs me the most when I’m comparing canon and fanon Martin. It’s the fact that in canon he never really changed.
I’ve said this before, but right now it really hit me. The Martin we see in early seasons is exactly the same Martin we see in season 5. He had always been like this.
I feel like the reason people talk about his “change” in season 5 is because up to that moment we’ve mainly heard Martin interacting with Jon, the man he had a crush on. Of course he’s gonna be stuttering and awkward! But when talking with Tim for example, Martin is his usual self - unless Jon is mentioned, of course.
Also there was this whole thing with the Lonely, where he got depressed and isolated himself from everyone. But for some reason it wasn’t a catalyst for his character development - when he got out of it, when he got out of the Lonely, he stayed the same as before. He just gained some self-awareness.
Season 5 Martin acts this way because at that point he has an idea of what’s happening and isn’t so anxious about his surroundings anymore, and, like every person that’s not being absolutely crushed by guilt at that time (Jon), his main objective is to get revenge for all the suffering he had to go through. Every other person from the archive crew would’ve done the same if they were in his position.
And there’s also the matter of him falling out of love with Jon / starting to see him more as a weapon, a monster, or just “his boyfriend” rather than a person.
Oh my god i just saw the ask you sent to mister hater and
WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?
This is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Martin said word-for-word "Let's go full Kill Bill! You know, get our murder on!" And then he just straight up backtracked his apology?? How in the world did I miss it?
Obviously Jon said that to him because he feels guilty. Hell, he felt guilty about the whole smiting thing from the start. He didn't realize he could kill avatars, he didn't mean to do it. He just wanted to hurt the NotThem because it hurt him. He was ashamed of it after it was done.
And then Martin encouraged him to do it, and straight up pointed at the avatars he wanted dead and got mad when Jon wasn't okay with killing people. As long as Martin felt good with it, the killing was a good and morally correct thing, but then he got a bit upset and bam! All Jon's fault!No, Jon, you can't expect me to make a decision whether or not to kill Jude Perry, because I don't hold any personal grudges against her and it's your hand that got burnt, so it's your choice to make. By the way, can you kill Simon Fairchild for me? He threatened to throw me off a rollercoaster once.
Jon can't control his monstrous urges obviously, and he needs to be put in his place before he starts killing people like the other Big Evil Monsters, because he's one of them!
I want someone to hurt Martin for real. Maybe then he would gain an ounce of sympathy for his boyfriend whom he supposedly loves. This is wilddd I'm so mad rn
one HUGE theme that I have found consistent in martin’s character throughout s5 so far is that he’s selfish, and loves not being held accountable for his actions. He uses jon like a tool to deal with his own personal grudges and is constantly egging him on and supporting him in a choice that wasn’t even his own, but when jon wants to smite someone for his OWN reasons, it’s suddenly “oh, you’re pushing this onto me! I can’t make this choice for you! making me choose is unfair!” despite his weird need to be up to date with and in constant control of all of jon’s choices.
^^ I mentioned this scene in my rant and I think it’s one of the first times we are shown outright how involved martin thinks he deserves to be in his boyfriend’s decisions and inner turmoil (also mentioned this before, but this toxic level of involvement that he seeks is so reminiscent of a mistrustful and paranoid gf looking through your phone and checking all your messages and history - the fact that he’s canonically super prone to jealousy is NOT helping this)
he feels the need and right to have a say in everything jon does, but as soon as Jon asks for his input or help with a decision he has to make, “that’s not fair”.
also yes, martin sees only in black and white; which is not ideal when your boyfriend happens to have triggered the apocalypse and is very much morally grey (against his best wishes). He keeps mentioning that all avatars are inherently Bad and deserve to die, not even once considering how Jon might internalize this in regards to his own self-image, or stopping to ask himself whether that’s really the case, or if his own over-simplification of the world he finds himself in is an attempt to cope with the fact that no, “good” and “bad” don’t exist anymore, and trying to force different concepts into those boxes will only result in a warped and inaccurate interpretation of your world.
but yes it’s wild I actually hate him sm idk how people can ship them in s5 they’re so obviously toxic and not good for eachother? how are you looking past that?
And the thing is jon can’t even acknowledge or process this properly because he is relying on martin so heavily, to be his anchor, to be his reason; he’s stuck in a constant spiral of guilt and blaming himself for everything so he doesn’t think he deserves anything, really, so martin tolerating him and wanting to be near him more than he is repulsed by him is such a relief. I’m so pissed about this. Jon deserves so much better
The fact that Jon is blamed for everything even after he sacrificed himself to save everyone and the one that actually did it is probably forgotten and no one blames him for anything will hurt me anytime I think about it
Since there are now takes that the tma s5 ending was more nuanced than people who dislike it give it credit for I’m just going to say: no, I don’t think Johnny meant to wholly endorse Martin & Basira & co. as uncomplicated good people making an uncomplicatedly moral choice. But. The reason people feel like the horror of it was accidental is because that’s not what the emotional beats focused on. The entire climax was written in such a way that getting a satisfying emotional response depended on being invested in the fate of jonmartin as a couple more than in anything else. If the horror had been deliberate the tone would not have been bittersweet, it would have been overwhelmingly bitter. Having I Do Not See It characters can be a well written flaw, but it doesn’t work if you make it easy for the audience to also go I Do Not See It. And the writing did allow for that - we were shown the positive (for Martin & Basira & co) consequences of the choice, that’s the note the show ended on*, and the only counterbalancing note to it was dissent from a character who was set up for a corruption arc and thus easily written off as only dissenting because he was corrupted by the Eye. I do think Johnny understood the horror of the choice M & B & co were making - but I don’t think he adequately emphasised or portrayed it, not just because of the audience response but because that audience response was shaped by what was shown and what wasn’t and what kind of emotional notes (hopeful) things ended on, and it’s the job of a horror writer to make an audience feel the full weight of horror of things that are meant to be horrifying.
*I refuse to take tmagp into consideration since that wasn’t even planned at the time
just finished my second relisten to tma and actually why is martin such a fucking bitch fr 😭 bro stands around doing nish for 3 seasons with a cup of tea then spends a season following peter like a fucking dumbass being a bitch to anyone thats not jon the whole damn show like godamn 😭 then hes walking the fucking apocalypse like 'jon fuck ur morals u should kill avatars thier monsters never mind that we are both avatars also im going to slap u and hold u accountable for starting the apocalypse so its ur job to fix it not like u were manipulated' 😭 liek damn bitch fuck off actually
yknow what someone had to say it good for you i lowkey love you for this. i do always appreciate when there are people who hate martin more intensely than me it really makes me feel vindicated and less radical
It's actually crazy that you're getting jumped so much for having an opinion
I mean, its kinda obvious that in a fandom with a large amount of people in it not everyone will think the same way. And not only that, you also have logical arguments to support your stance instead of just hatred towards the character!!! Very rare these days!!!!
And yet people are constantly yelling at you, like little kids losing an argument. They can't just like the character themselves, they also have to force that opinion on everyone else and act like there is only one valid way to perceive the character.
(Its very tiktok behaviour of them yk. Baby's first fandom. "Everything is about me". Sometimes you just gotta go "ah, i completely disagree with this stranger on the internet! Well, time to block them.")
Tbh i feel like those people are all martin kinnies because i think he would do that. Just absolutely resent everyone who dares to think differently than him.
Also im glad you liked my stance on jmart shippers that i sent you a while back xx
people do get a little defensive at times and it’s like… woah babe 😨😨 only talking about the character here 😨😨 it’s because martin’s a character that can so easily be projected onto by people that think they’re like morally superior for who they kin and then they get defensive because they think im attacking them personally and it’s like noooo im not i promise ‼️
You answered an anon about jongerrymartin some time ago, and it made me think about the ship for a moment.
First of all, i absolutely CANNOT picture them getting together. With jongerry it kind of makes sense? - you have jon meeting book-gerry and they seem to kinda get on, and you can muster up something based on that encounter like AUs itd. I mean, as scarce as their interactions are, you have a pretty solid foundation and you can just make up the rest as you go. But i can't imagine where martin would fit in that. I cannot imagine him just... stumbling upon gerry.
But let's put their imaginary first meeting aside for a moment. Both gerry and martin had a complicated and frankly unhealthy relationship with their mothers, and i've seen a lot of people (shippers) making their bond revolve around that. Which is nice! Woohoo parallels!
And yet the ship between jon, gerry and martin just does not make sense from a canon viewpoint. And by that i mean the characters' personalities makes it impossible to work out. Or, to be honest, just martin's personality. That man is insanely jealous of everyone that dares to be near jon, and i dont mean it in a "silly quirky" way.
If they ever were to become a throuple (like in a completely detached from the canon setting) i feel like they would get on fairly well at first, but if they were to start displaying affection to eachother in a different way than simply friendly, martin would immediately become jealous and then just take apart their relationship with gerry piece by piece until only him and jon are in the equation.
(Honestly that's more about season 5 martin. If it were the earlier seasons martin, he would probably do the opposite thing and slowly remove himself from the relationship, because "they don't need him anyway" and "he's just happy to br around and help" and "he wouldn't want to get in the way of jon's happiness" etc.)
This got kinda long and im sorry. My main point is, as usual, that i am upset by the mischaracterization/misunderstanding of martin that's so popularized by fanon. I honestly feel like i could like him! Maybe even relate to him in a way! But because of the way he's presented by fandom, upon hearing the name martin every tma fan goes "aw hes the cute gay one! The guy thats a big softie but has an unexpected dangerous side! Yess king stand up for yourself!! Don't let them treat you like shit!!" And dear lord it's so shallow. He's more than that. His actions have reasons, and they are not always "good" reasons either!! Like jon smashing the fucking table and freeing the notThem - nobody'ssaying that it was a smart move!!Let him make mistakes i beg of you!
As im typing this I realized that most people who do that are the same people who relate to him, and it struck me that perhaps they reduce and compress martin's character to just make him into the traits they see themselves as, (i mean: shy, people pleaser, bad-relationship-with-mother, likes tea, big crush on someone who doesn't notice him - you know, those traits that could apply to basically anybody and ESPECIALLY to insecure teenagers - the main demographic) and then they fill the rest with their own personality traits.
Imo in order to properly judge a character it's important to step aside for a moment and consider them from another POV.
I feel like ive done way too many "overly-long-rant-regarding-fanon-martin" asks and that im starting to repeat myself like a scratched CD. Im gonna have to cook up something about jon as well. AND his relationship with georgie.
people do seem to pick and choose what qualities they want to even think about when writing/observing martin in any way. obviously this is natural and makes sense with any character because people are going to focus most on what they’re biased towards for a myriad of reasons, but it’s CRAZY w martin fans ive noticed. which isn’t necessarily a bad thing but also likeeee it does make for a less diverse experience, especially when most of the fans seem to focus on the same kinda things so some qualities get severely overlooked and this lowkey makes for a far less interesting character.
my point is that this is extra prevalent in shipping, especially with more like weird ships like this that are particularly unsupported in canon, and it’s lead to somewhat of a weird like mass delusion almost ((obviously a hyperbole)) in terms of his character, where people are - as you said - pretty much just turning him almost into a self-insert. ive probably got more to say but not rn sorry im gonna go check if my waffles r done cooking
Almost every fan piece of media depicting Martin is just blatant mischaracterization that either puts him in the role of "sweet shy cinnamon roll" or "hot sexy guy smiting his opps". And they always without fail romanticize or downplay his flaws.
I think it's mainly cause so many young fans find him relatable, and thus they have warped him so that he would fit into a versatile stereotype, which is AWFUL.
You can like a character just because, but in order to really understand them you have to step away from your own carefully created version for a moment. I love Jon and am in full support of any criticism on the man, he deserves it! Let people hate Martin!!! It's good and constructive!!
It pisses me off so much that his fans don't allow others to hate on him. Its always "wait but whyyy?? Why would you hate my sweetie??? :((((" they cannot comprehend nuanced characters they're always watered down
people have SUCH an immediate kneejerk reaction to even the concept of someone disliking martin like they literally cannot fathom it and it’s like ?? he’s not even that likable of a character like im not being that radical here 😓
Martin Blackwood has the mannerisms of a chronically online insecure teenager. How he managed to get a position in academia is beyond me. Elias must've thought him very easy to kill, sad that he was wrong.
Martin should've gotten a beating from an avatar at least once. Maybe that would've caused his character to finally develop AND made him actually sympathize with his boyfriend
