March 2025

Ok it seems rude to ask if you've already done it but I, like, Cannot find it so: could you please give your analysis on martin/ Jmart? I diluted myself with fanfiction (some of which addresses the problems that are there) but I'm restarting TMA and I like him less this time around but I can't put my finger on why (?) And that frustrates me but it helps to hear others organized opinions on it

Thank you

If you typed “anti jmart” and “martin blackwood critical” into the little search bar above my blog I think you would be able to find those just fine

I dislike most fanon portrayals of jmart, it seems too much woobified to me

By s5 Martin is stubborn, petty, condescending, blaming jon for things he can't control. S1 Jon was mean and emotionally constipated and by s5 he's full of guilt acting like a bit of a doormat with everyone because he convinced himself he deserves it. The more i relisten (esp s5 with so much jmart development) the more it's obvious that they are extremely terrible at communicating because they're both traumatized as shit and never had the chance to learn properly because yk, fear apocalypse and stuff, not a prime example of a healthy learning environment, but that often shows up in the form of not so healthy behaviors with each other. Understandable because the situation is horrible.

I like them that way. They're complex and feel more real. But then i go into the fandom and it's a bit... Eh? Ykwim? It's like they forgot about everything but the cute lovey dovey parts or the sad parts. I mean fair, fluff is nice especially after mag200 and we all love some good angst, but atp it's a majority of the fandom portrayal 😭 I can't engage too much with jmart content, because a lot of it feels wildly mischaracterized. It's a shame because their character and dynamic is really interesting to me

magpod-confessions:

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Sometimes I mourn for the version of season 5 I thought I was going to hear. I loved the whole plotline of Jon trying to save Martin from the lonely. Because Jon felt responsible for him, and Martin was the only one of Jon's assistants left. and I was convinced I was going to see Jon realising that he actually didn't like Martin.

Because like. throughout the podcast Jon is continually choosing to try to get power and information in order to protect the people around him. He's willing to sacrifice his friendships, his safety, his humanity, because he cares, even for people who have tried to kill him. He tries to kill Not Sasha, someone he remembers being friends with, in order to protect the others. And then Martin gets offered the chance to kill Jonah Magnus and free all the employees and he turns it down because he's a person! and he wants to have friends!

and they're just so incompatible and I thought we'd get to see Jon wondering if it was worth it to save Martin, and all this delicious stuff. and the creators said they wouldn't make the relationship canon!

and then we got season 5 instead.

any thoughts?

Yeah. You covered basically everything I’ve been criticizing. Literally every single tma critical post I’ve made circles around these topics. (Under the cut bc I just learned how to make those)

Season 4 felt like a build-up to something huge. We got nearly all of the cast hating Jon for something completely out of his control. We got Martin trying to pull off a self-sacrifice. We got introduced to the Extinction, told that it was a terrible danger to everyone and that it had to be stopped. A lot of things were happening at once, and there was a looot of tension between the characters.

Then comes time for the big reveal, and it really was big. We found out what happened to Jonah Magnus and the real reason why the Institute was built. Martin also got to show that he’s not as weak and helpless as everyone thought.

Jon’s desperate attempt to pull Martin out of the Lonely was little more than that. By that point, Martin was literally the only person that didn’t outright despise Jon for becoming an Avatar, and that might be simply because he and Martin didn’t even talk once. Another reason for Jon’s lack of hesitation might be that he realized the crush Martin used to have on him, and so saving the man might’ve given him the hope of finding someone who’d treat him like a person, not a monster. All in all, it had less to do with romantic feelings, and more with desperation and the difficult situation Jon had found himself in.

There is no real build-up to them getting together. It’s just… one moment they’re in the Lonely, desperate to find one another, and a moment later they’re saying “I love you” and kissing eachother. When did that happen? And don’t say “well it was during the time they spent in the safehouse together!” Then why are they so painfully incompatible throughout season 5? Seriously, I get the whole “grasping at eachother for balance” thing, but was there really a need to make them a couple so soon? The build-up felt more like it would lead to a friendship, not outright romance - which is why their relationship felt so surface-level in the following season.

I completely missed the transition to the Safehouse on my first listen, and honestly I’m still not sure how it all happened. Jon and Martin’s conversations there seem light and at ease, but they have no real basis for a meaningful bond.

And yeah, there’s the issue with their contributions to their relationship being unequal. Jon is bending over backwards trying to accommodate Martin, leaving when he feels the need to make a statement, trying to explain everything as best as he can while carrying the weight of the world’s suffering on his shoulders. He’s not perfect, but it’s more than enough considering the situation they’re in.

But Martin? He’s selfish in his behaviour, even if it’s not outright visible. He refuses to listen to Jon talking about the fearscape because it makes him uncomfortable. He doesn’t try to look at the situation from Jon’s point of view - admittedly, that would’ve been very difficult, but he could’ve at least tried to show some support. He’s repulsed by Jon’s new needs, and, when they’re at Salesa’s, he laughs at Jon when he’s stripped of the Eye’s power. All of those behaviours are understandable of course, but it makes their relationship that ordinary kind of unhealthy; even tho they have their moments, ultimately they’re just two people staying together despite not getting on very well. It was spelled out for them by Peter Lukas:

(I’ve lost count of how many times I used this screenshot)

Peter was trying to upset Jon here of course. But that doesn’t change the fact it’s true. They just don’t have a basis for a meaningful relationship, because they barely even spoke. And yet they’re the focus of an entire season.

Yeah, yeah, it’s because of their circumstances, sure. But nearly every single fan looks at their relationship through rose-colored glasses. Better yet, I’ve seen people describe TMA as a “gay horror podcast” just because of jmart. And it’s infuriating, because their relationship gives us nothing. These two men talked for the first time in what? Months? And the writers decided “yeah we’ll make them boyfriends! This will be a hit with the gay fans for sure!” and then they wrote the blandest possible relationship they could’ve. It’s like your parents who constantly bicker yet don’t want to get a divorce. Just two coworkers in an apocalyptic world, and suddenly it’s “gay horror”.

Also they’re so obviously unhealthy, and yet the narrative just… ignores it. There aren’t any real consequences to their lack of compability, which is weird!! Really? No consequences? In MY inevitable consequences of your actions podcast?

Let’s talk abot Martin, because of course it all comes back to him. My main issue with the man is that he thinks in black and white. When the Avatars kill people it’s for their Patrons and out of their twisted desire, and so they’re bad and evil. When he kills people(through Jon), then it’s taking revenge on those monsters that hurt him, so it’s right, and it’s good. When Martin first witnessed Jon’s new “powers”, it’s him who came up with the idea of using it for revenge. And as long as it’s his initiative and Jon is only doing it for him, then it’s good and morally correct. But when he noticed Jon started to enjoy the killing, then suddenly it’s “wrong” and “not okay”, because “you weren’t supposed to enjoy it this much!” (Please be for real.) His perception of “right” and “wrong” is whatever is most convenient for him at that moment.

My other issue with Martin is that the Lonely barely even affected him. It was more like “heavy depression but make it Supernatural”. Season 4 started sculpting him into an interesting character, someone who’s ready to sacrifice himself yet cannot stand the thought of his friends getting hurt in the process. His whole Lonely arc gave him depth. He was focused. He had a plan. He made a decision and was ready to pull through with it.

But then he gets thrown into the Forsaken by Peter, and by the time Jon pulls him out, he’s exactly where he started. The same insufferable brand of nervousness and indecision and lack of understanding. Turned back into the nerd emoji. Like… the whole “Martin being an avatar of the Lonely” thing could serve as an explanation to the shallow nature of their relationship - it could be the Lonely pulling them further apart! Or Martin realizing he lost feelings for Jon and quietly distancing himself from the man! Delicious inescapable tragedy!

So yeah. There’s not a word said about their shitty bond, and it’s the main focus of the last season. Boring boring boring!!! The wonderful opportunity to make them both monstrous was MISSED!!! Of cooourse Martin is unaffected by the Lonely, it’s because he’s with Jon! Martin helps Jon regain his humanity! The Eye approves of their relationship!! Also the whole “you are my reason” part was, like, the easiest way to make Jon not suicidal, for which he had all the reasons imaginable. That man hated himself for being a monster, and everyone else hated him too!! But noo he’s with Martin now! The power of love cured him of depression! But not Martin tho, he deserves to wallow in his suffering, even though Jon had it just as bad if not worse. They had to divide them into “the one who’s a monster and losing himself” and “the one responsible for keeping the monster at a leash”. I apologize for the odd wording, i don’t know how else to phrase it.

Perfect opportunity to make fucked up monstrous tragic gays, and we got toxic teenage couple instead. The whole apocalyptic setting was TERRIFYINGLY UNDERUTILIZED!!!!! Also the s5 plot felt like they were just. Dragging the whole thing. The finale was cool, moral dilemma and all, but everything before that? Unremarkable. Questionable, even. I only liked the statements. (But tbh I mainly only like the statements.)

hello !! id say im a jonmartin fan (not my top jon ship tho lmao…jongerry forever) but i like them best with their nuances and not the blorboified version of them. so i have something to offer.

jon and martin fall in love with each other much in the same way they know to receive/take love from their family members.

martin’s mother was shown to be callous and verbally mean to him. im not saying jon is as bad as her (not even close) what i am saying is martin loved the part of jon that he was familiar with. someone who didnt like him.

jon started to noticeably fall in love with martin when he was distant from him and ignored him, much like his grandmother. thats how he’s felt love in the past.

thats how they grew up and it skewed their perception of love and relationships. its inherently unhealthy. i think that aspect of their relationship is very overlooked and interesting. i hope you understand what i mean as im not very good at explaining my thoughts 😅

Interesting take but i don’t fully agree. I mean this is obviously what happened with Martin, but Jon? Not really.

In order for this to work out we would first need to see a buildup to Jon and Martin’s relationship, which the canon didn’t provide us with. That’s my main issue - the romance came out of nowhere. We knew about Martin’s crush from almost the very beginning, but not Jon’s.

In season 4 he changed his stance on Martin - from “he’s useless and unqualified” to “we have to trust what hes doing”. That’s a nice beginning, but not really the setting stone for a romance. So my problem is we can’t really say anything about Jon’s perspective on the relationship bc there really wasn’t any journey to it. They didn’t have even one proper interaction to show us their newly developed dynamic. The romance sucks because it’s undercooked and has no real foundation, it just appeared out of thin air. If there were any developments during their period in the safehouse, we didn’t hear them. Also I cannot for the life of me understand that random timeskip there sorry

So maybe you’re right and your perspective is accurate but the canon gives us little more than a few “I love you"s. After a while it just turns to pure speculation. Season 5 should’ve let those gays simmer. Soak up the trauma juices for flavour

Real thought im the doorway anon again I'm gonna name myself doorway anon because of that misspelling

I don't give a shit about ships either but I like to read fanfics once in ages and Gerry and Michael are my favourite characters so I like it when it's focused on them especially Gerry I love Gerry I like it when something is focused mostly on him or halfly of him because I relate to him a lot

But tma would have been so much better without any canon ships though

STATEMENTS ON TOP STATEMENTS I WAT THE STATEMENTS

i was excited about jmart when I first got into it but a year later......get it away from me......

Also random but I hate timsasha and jackagnea or whatever MY AROAMANTIC QUEENS TRUST

agnes is Def aroace

Oh yeaaaah. Jmart being canon ruined the whole experience for sure. And I’m not saying it like “well since the podcast is horror focused, there shouldn’t be any romance, just scary!”. I just wish the romance included the horror aspect. More gothic perhaps? Instead we got “two coworkers walking through the apocalypse holding hands”.

Because of jmart the horror bit was pushed aside in season 5, which ironically takes place in the fearscape, so it should’ve been horror FOCUSED. Dumb as hell. Hate it forever.

Also most fanfics are either 1) Jmart centric or 2) terribly out of character. Or both. The only good tma fic I have ever read was an AU in which Jon was a fairy. And even then they had nothing left of the original characters.

I agree with aroace Agnes it’s such a cool concept. She was raised in almost complete isolation from “normality”, so I feel like her fascination with relationships in general came from the fact that it was all alien to her. She was only ever a Messiah. It’s not like she got the chance to hold hands with people before. It’s just like with the coffee she never drank - she wanted the experience, a fairytale version of something actually mundane. I mean, it’s the things you never got to try that you want the most.

i’d love to hear your thoughts on this scene!!! i copied it direct from transcript. i already know how i feel on it, but i’d love to hear yours. the whole slapping thing martin did is icky and gross and im glad jon doesnt brush over it TOO much

MARTIN (cutting in)

“No, no, no; that's enough!”

[A JANGLING AS HE - REACHES OVER?]

MARTIN (CONT'D)

“That's enough.”

[PAUSE.]

[A FEW STEPS.]

[THEN, CLOTHING SOUNDS AS THE ARCHIVIST SPEAKS:]

ARCHIVIST

“Thank you for not hitting me this time.”

[A PAUSE THAT STRETCHES ON FOR THE SPAN OF THREE HEAVY BREATHS.]

Wow, Martin actually took Jon’s feelings into consideration for once? Unbelievable. Should’ve started by not hitting him that first time. It wasn’t that hard! He could’ve just done whatever he did here instead of a slap to the face.

I think “the Jon that’s an avatar” and “the Jon that’s his lover” are two separate beings in Martin’s mind, and so slapping “the monster” didn’t matter as long as he got “his” Jon back.

It’s great that their relationship isn’t “teenage couple” level of toxic, but I still don’t care. I liked the horrors, and so the sudden unexpected appearance of canon romance soured the experience for me.

Hehe me again 👉👈

What do you think was Jonny's reason to make Jon and Martin end up together? I, for the longest time, just accepted that it was just fanservice. We've known about Martin's crush since season three, and Jmart was popular, so he rewarded people that were hoping for it to be canon, but I don't really like that hypothesis; it kind of feels too much like a "the curtains are just blue" way of thinking.

I tried putting something together; maybe Jmart was meant to be a parallel of Daisy and Basira, with Basira loving (platonically or not) Daisy when she's at her most monstrous, and Martin hating Jon for it, but idk if it really makes sense because Martin likes the idea of killing people as long as HE sees fit.

I'm not MatPat, i'm really bad at theorising so i would like to see your perspective on this.

For me, it still feels like the first reason is true: the fans liked the characters, and so the writers just smooshed them together. I mentioned previously that Jon and Martin’s jump to romance feels rushed to me. The build-up they got felt like it would lead to a friendship at most.

The paralell to Daisy and Basira is interesting. Basira liked Daisy at her most monstrous. Martin liked Jon at his most human.

Except Basira admits that later on. The nature of her relationship with Daisy is outlined and highlited, and more visible to the viewer. The narrative never does that with Jon and Martin: it’s just made to be that whole “you are my reason” thing.

The canon provided us with an interesting dynamic and then did nothing to explore it, or at least explain it, resulting in a lot of fans seeing them as cutesy and lovey-dovey.

It also explains Martin’s reasoning in the last episodes on s5. He didn’t want for Jon to become a monster, not out of sympathy, but because he doesn’t like Jon monstrous and tied to the Eye. He is repulsed by Avatar-Jon. This also adds to the nuance of their relationship, considering that being an avatar is, at that time, a very large part of Jon’s very being. He can’t get rid of it without ripping out parts of himself. The version of Jon that Martin loves doesn’t exist anymore. Maybe it never existed at all.

MARTIN

[Petulantly] Of course it is. Of course it is! Because how could this journey possibly end with anything less than the final, supreme destiny of the Archivist, plugged into the great fear machine for all eternity and, and abandoning humanity.

Breaking his promise. (MAG 194)

MARTIN

Because she said if I did, she’d leave without me. And then… well… we’d have had to stick with crappy Plan A, and you’d… you’d end up gone. (MAG 198)

GEORGIE

Spread the fears to other realities.

Option two is John takes over from Magnus. Keeps the Powers contained here with us, and tries his best to make the place a little more… tolerable, until the end.

MARTIN

And we lose him. (MAG 199)

I still think the romance was unnecessary. All of this could’ve been done without these two kissing, and maybe that would’ve made the fans stop obsessing over the ship just beause it’s canon and actually focus on the horror part every once in a while.

Idk you or another person already talked about this, but one of the biggest reason as to why i can't understand HOW people think Jmart are a perfect couple is this

Mag 172

He literally slapped him just because he didn't want to wait? Why did everyone just forget about this? I don't remember if Jon by S5 still feels pain, but even if he didn’t, there is no reason to do that; he could just shake him or call him instead; Martin wasn't in a desperate situation where he needed Jon to wake up fast, he just did it.

Mag 173

He thanks Martin for not hitting him? Wtf. He did only slap Jon for no reason this one time, but i'm pretty sure hitting your lover more than zero times is not normal

Their relationship definitely isn’t all sunshine and rainbows like the fandom likes to paint it. And it pisses me off!! “You were starting another and I didn’t want to wait” to where are you rushing in the place where time doesn’t function anymore? You’re gonna be surrounded by horror in a few minutes anyway.

It could’ve been good if presented correctly, but all jonmartin content/fanart I see says something like “the slowest slow burn ever aww” “the Antichrist with his boyfriend!” “They’re looking at cows!” “Martin fell first Jon fell harder” and ugh. It could’ve been bearable. Fine, even. But it’s all that there is. There is NO terrible broken incompatible jmart (beyond the “ouuugh you made me stab youu, how could you do that??” thing AND EVEN THAT makes Jon seem like he’s the only one at fault).

Because of this a lot of people decide to get into TMA with the fluffy fanon version of jmart already in their minds, and when they get to season 5, they aren’t prepared to look past the “apocalyptic gays” version which they’ve internalized. Some of them even go so far as to skip the statements in favor of dialogue, because they’re boring.

Everyone collectively missed all the nuance in favor of a bland gay pairing that doesn’t even work like that in canon. Please engage with the source material beyond looking at what you want to see. There’s media with queer representation that doesn’t involve horror! You don’t have to specifically get into a horror fiction podcast just to ignore the horror part and listen to gay men talk!

i dont like tma finale, i feel like it was forced just to have a bittersweet jmart moment, and im sort of neutral to negative on jmart as is especially as presented in canon and i think thats one of the biggest reasons i dont care for it. still, i think it feels insanely forced and inorganic just in the way the two options are set up, but i really really do like the concept of it, dont get me wrong, but the way it came up feels wrong, i feel like they should have cemented the dilemma earlier in the season. i really want to love it, and i like the conclusion it left and the opening for the magnus protocol and where it took that, but its just so lackluster as it sits.

magpod-confessions:

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I feel like jonmartin fans want them to be Frodo and Sam SO bad but they never will be! They're like frodo and sam if they didn't have years of friendship and a deep bond and sam didn't actually give a fuck about frodo and pushed him into the volcano himself in the end

martinblackwoodhater:

never read the hobbit but i think ill love you forever for this nonetheless. get so freaky on my blog

Waitt this is so real. They want jmart to have a meaningful, deep, life-changing bond so BAAAAAD.

Newsflash pal! They don’t know eachother at all! It’s like trying to romance a stranger on the bus. It just won’t work.

A good romance needs a good foundation, whether it be mutual affection or resentment. Those two are hollow. Knock on their relationship and you’ll hear an echo