---
layout:          post
title:           "MAG160.01 - Season 4 Q+A Part 1"
date:            2019-11-28 12:00:00 -0400
categories:      special
tags:            []
episode_title:   'Season 4 Q+A Part 1'
episode_number:  '160.01'
summary:         "Welcome to the first of our season break episodes. <br/><br/>Alex and Jonny answer your questions about The Magnus Archives and Season 4. Enjoy!"
content_flags:   []
acast_url:       https://play.acast.com/s/themagnusarchives/mag160.1-season4q-apart1
formats: 
  PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TCRUUih_ZHrogvfKSSNrL5QkmuPlAQM1/
  Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ba5_mSkE5jSQjsOl0QM9VJiQYzOOBHgNQRV5_UGt_z4/
official:        false
unofficial:      https://twitter.com/daytime_ghosts
unofficial_name: daytime_ghosts
wiki_url:        
has_footnotes:   true
---

#### ALEX

Hello and welcome to The Magnus Archives Season 4 Q&A. This is going to be one of two, because we've... a lot and I'm here with Jonny Sims.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

T-there's... There's a lot. There's... There's a lot.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

And we're going to be doing our best to get through all of the questions that have been raised, eh, since last time we did a Q&A. We are going to preface this though, with going: we have *more* than seven hundred and it's still going up.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Like a lot. Yeah, there's- there's so many.

#### ALEX

So, it is gonna be a case of statistically speaking your specific question isn't going to be asked and we're sorry about that.

#### JONNY

There were, uh, apparently quite a few that have been condensed down into...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Sort of over questions...?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

There's- There's a couple of questions that where more than a hundred people asked some version of the same question.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

So we should get through quite a lot of them. But, yeah, we... can't do all of them...? _(not assuringly)_ We're gonna to do the best we can...? And we're going to shake things up a little bit, instead of going through sort of blocky, like, one-on cast, one-on production, etcetera. We're now going to be separating it now a little bit and I'll be shaking it up and keeping you on your toes. Um, so-

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Right... [*takes a breath*] to be honest, I'm a little bit nervous!

#### ALEX

This is a- this is a tricky one because we've taken bigger punts for this season so we'll see how it goes.

#### JONNY

And there are enough people listening out there now that I can feel the pressure of history upon me.

#### ALEX

Yeah...? I mean if you want to have fun you need to... This probably...

#### JONNY

_(protests)_ I can't have fun. I can't have fun. Fun is... Fun, joke-y answers are no longer... uh... [*protest-y groan*]

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

No, it's great. You need to- you need to go on, uh, google trends at some point and look at the search, uh, searches for Magnus Archives and look at that nice little logarithmic, uh, scales. It's lovely! Right!

#### JONNY

_(groans)_ Oh dear. I don't know what happened. Thank you to everyone who's recently joined us to listen, we a hundred percent value you and are only a little bit scared.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Oh no! He's- He's terrified! I'm- I'm at this point so far beyond the pale, you just kind of roll with it. It's like surfing an enormous wave!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Alex hasn't had... Alex hasn't had feelings in... some years.

#### ALEX

It's true! In fact! Straight out of the gate I'm going to use that as my in! So the first of our questions has to do with cast: Alex, why do you hate Martin so much?

#### JONNY

That's a real good question.

#### ALEX

OK, this is a very simple question that has come up more than once. I don't *actively* hate Martin. 

##### [Jonny giggles in the background]

I just don't like him and I've said it before, so I will just have to repeat my answer from before which is: 

He is a younger version of me when it comes to characterization and when it comes to script editing, I've also done that as well. It is a version of... me, at least parts of him, are a version of me from a while ago that needed to learn, and has now learned, actually, through season four, that going around just trying to set yourself on fire to keep everyone else warm doesn't work? And, so I'm actually OK with Martin by end of season four for the simple reason that he... stopped doing that thing...?

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

So, I'm OK with Martin now.

#### JONNY

I really like him as a character. I find him through season four he was quite difficult to write because often there would be... plot points I needed him to deliver and every time I tried to write him delivering them it sounded- it didn't sound right, i-it just sounded false in his voice?

#### ALEX

Well, it's because Martin's default in season four became "I'm kind of pissy right now."

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Which makes his exposition a bit difficult.

#### JONNY

But we got that.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

Oh and that one is from [__*antivan*__], I need to remember to... eh, *read the names*!

#### JONNY

Oh, yes. Thank you!

#### ALEX

Right. So we have a production question. Uh, for both of us, from [__*benja*__]: How do you feel about being so close to the end of Magnus?

#### JONNY

##### [takes a breath]

Excited and a little bit nervous. Maybe.

#### ALEX

Yeah. I think... for myself, we're entering- so, we're past the danger period of season four which was, uh, everyone might hate us for what we did?

#### JONNY

Yeah, the big- the big climax of season four has always going to be part of the whole series that we were most, like, worried about. That it's been building for four seasons.

#### ALEX

Yeah, yeah. 

For me end of Magnus is scary for the same reason for any project you do which is scary which is: 

You do your finale and everyone goes "That was fantastic!" and you're like "Cool, here's this other thing that we're now working on that we think you'll really enjoy," and every one goes "No, I'm good. One project, per creative, per lifetime!"

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Uh, that's the scare. That's the fear.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, that is a bit worrisome. Also! I have some slight nerves about season five just because for season four we knew the big drop. We were going towards- and while- I'm like- we know the- we know the- the end of season five we're going to, but it's a different sort of journey.

#### ALEX

Denouement a heart.[^1]

[^1]: Unsure about this, I think it's a French phrase?

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

I think it's going to be the most technically difficult one for us to.... write? Without it necessarily being the most... risky in terms of like, ending the world with a season to go, as a higher risk.

#### JONNY

I'm just glad that here on tape you will confirm that you're happy for us to do approximately forty unknownings, uh, in terms of audio editing?

#### ALEX

Erm, yeah, I'm- absolutely- you can write as many unknowings as you want we're not going to *make* them.

##### [Jonny starts to giggle]

#### ALEX [CONT.]

So you can just make them on your own and get yourself a wobble board and just have some fun!

#### JONNY

_(smiling)_ Is- is that what you do?

#### ALEX

I mean- I'm not gonna go into that unless it's a question. 

So, onto a story question from [__*ashelydesertwillowwilson*__]: Limited swearing is done for real world release reasons, but is there any reason for it within the lore? Does The Eye just not like cursing in its statements/meals?

#### JONNY

I mean... there's no lore-reason except that the characters we're writing aren't particularly swear-y... Erm-

#### ALEX

And I'm fairly certain they would've been more if I wasn't like "No!"

#### JONNY

I mean- Oh yeah. No there was-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

This hard, grizzled convict also cares a lot about cursing!

#### JONNY

If it's, uh, of interest to anyone, um, there was the "Piecemeal" episode was where this first came to the fall.

##### [Alex, agreeing the in background with "mhm" and "yep"]

__[cont.]__ Uh, because the first draft of that I... filled it *chock* full of, uh... swears.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

*Chock full!*

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Uh, and Alex, uh, largely, actually as a catalyst to have the conversation, um, and we had the conversation and the swearing in that one was toned back a bit and we, uh, landed at the level that we've more or less continued. Personally from a writing point of view I, a hundred percent, agree with Alex that it's really useful to be able to have some linguistic escalation...

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

...Available to you which is hard when you've got a constant stream of, uh, expletives.

#### ALEX

Pretty much that. I d- I don't really have anything to add to that. Bang on. 

K this one's a writing question, so.

#### JONNY

Oh ho ho! 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(softly)_ *What? Why would he ask that?*

#### ALEX [CONT.]

This is from [__*sy*__], "s, y,": This season had a lot of focus on the characters' emotional conditions, motivations, and interpersonal relationships all dealing with a lot of nuance, what part was the hardest to write to convey in your opinion and what part did you want to get exactly right the most?

#### JONNY

##### [takes a deep breath]

Whoa.

#### ALEX

I am going to struggle to pick the most, I could pick sort of a highlight reel.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Because we have a lot in this one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

When we were doing season planning for this one we actually put little, sort of, red markers on the bits we knew we were going to have to focus on.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

So stuff like, Melanie's decision.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

*Melanie's decision*, I think is one of the- like a lot of this series was... contextualizing because the- the- the idea of Melanie doing that, uh, as... an actually mentally healthy act is that makes sense...?

#### ALEX

It's really difficult!

#### JONNY

It was something that we wanted to- to dive into but not from an emotional writing point of view but from- no, I mean, there are people who are blind who are saying:

_(dramatic)_ "Oh, this horrible thing- this-"

#### ALEX

Terrible! _(incoherent sounds)_

#### JONNY [CONT.]

_(dramatic)_ "This terrible thing of being bl--"

 Like there's a lot to consider in order to not make it a really...

#### ALEX

Gouache.

#### JONNY

I was going to say *[beep]*.[^2]

[^2]: I think Jonny said "shit"

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

_(not convincingly)_ Sure.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But, uh, but a really bad piece of representation and we wanted to -- to take care to not do that.

#### ALEX

Also, treading the line for Peter in terms of everyone hates Peter...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Because he's a real-world villain instead of a "I'm-gonna-eat-your-brains" villain...?

#### JONNY

Yeah, the lonely, like diving into the lonely, I hadn't quite anticipated how close it would cue real world depression.

#### ALEX

_(makes an agreeing sound)_

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Uh, and it was one of those things that... when -- when you read it back it's obvious, but it was only through the writing that I started to realize that "Oh this is -- this is touching on some... very real stuff," and so that was -- that was a very, yeah, tricky line to walk.

#### ALEX

Another one that I think we put a marker down but actually turned out to *seem* to come out better than we feared it might, is the sort of pseudo-addiction angle on The, erm, Archivist statement-giving...?

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Where that one we were aware that could get away from you if you weren't being careful about it but I don't think it --

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I think -- I think it -- it seemed to land quite well.

#### ALEX

Yeah, it seemed to land the way we wanted which was not as a lazy analog.

#### JONNY

Yeah. I mean, as -- as a whole -- because season three was very dynamic.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah a lot of it...

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Yeah, very going out there. Like, taking action, we wanted season four to be much more... emotion-focused for the -- the plot and the emotional arcs to be much more one in the same.

#### ALEX

I agree. I think for what it's worth there are more, but then we're just going to start just listing episodes and we have to be careful with.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I mean -- _(incoherent sounds)_ with every relationship -- *every* relationship that got any play in the series, uh, which is all of them.

#### ALEX

Um, and you know what, here's a one extra little bonus one which made me chuckle.

#### JONNY

_(intrigued)_ Oo! A bonus!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Is, again, I don't actually engage in the fanbase that much anymore, just due to time constraints, if nothing else, erm, but hearing that people were start of getting -- getting a bit antsy with Basira for being a bit, a sort of steamroller-y and things.

#### JONNY

Oh yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But the fact that Basira's the one who was *right* all season!

#### JONNY

To -- for a given -- for a given value of right. Like -- I mean, this is not a season where there is anyone who is *right*. Uh, who wou--

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Just saying, The Archivist did end the world and if Basira had given him a harder time he might not have done.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(reluctantly)_ Yeah OK. Alright. 

_[not background]_ If -- if by like a harder time you mean _(makes a sound like slicing his throat)_.

#### ALEX

Just a compl-- yeah -- just a complete stone-cold murdering.

#### JONNY

But, uh, she -- if -- if she could've -- if she could've who's to say? Who's to say?

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Oh yeah.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

But no, there -- this is the thing, like there are no simple answers there are no like "Oh, this person is right and she should've done this."

#### ALEX

No, that was the point of the season. 

##### [Alex laughs]

Onto a -- a non-story one this time, this one is from a -- a *quote-loads* of people.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Q*uote-loads*, oh, OK.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Erm, as in, that's an actual number not the name.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

_(stretching)_ Alright, bracing myself!

#### ALEX

How much do you keep up with social media to see what fans are saying about Magnus or does Anil keep tabs on all of us panopticon-style and alert you when something significant comes up?

#### ALEX

I can answer for me, I can't answer for Jonny. 

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Very much the latter for me at this point. It's like a personalized Google alert from Anil who's like: "Listen everyone does worry that you are anti-Martin, is that a thing we're gonna need to discuss?" But I don't -- I haven't really had much chance to dive in anything -- I -- I, yeah.

#### JONNY [overlapping]

It's largely because people were like:

_(dramatic)_ "Oh, Jonny, you're writing lots horrible things happening to our beloved Martin," and I'm like: _(plainly)_ "Yes, it's a horror -- it's a horror show."

##### [Alex laughs]

And they're like: _(dramatic)_ "Why do you hate Martin?" and then I'm like: _(plainly)_ "Actually, it's mostly Alex." So it's -- it's my fault, I have, a hundred percent, outsourced, uh, fan discontent onto you, 'cause you're more insulated from it.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

_(not convincingly)_ Right. It's all good. 

_(incoherent sounds)_ W-well ultimately, yeah, cause if anyone threatens me I can just make Martin sadder.

##### [both bursts into laughter]

#### JONNY

I -- it's -- it's very true. 

Um, I tend to... on release day, I will keep half an eye on, uh, the reddit or the tumblr and... I u-used to be the discord, I still sometimes do, but it goes -- it goes very fast and I generally don't have a -- a chance to actually properly engage with it. Um, so immediately after an episode drops I'll generally be trying to get a sense for how it's gone down? And a sense for what the reaction is, but I -- I do rely on Anil to let me know if there is... any problems or any, like, anything that's come up, uh, on social media that is like: "Oh, I should probably address that."

#### ALEX

See, I feel like I've started this reputation as Gandalf The Great where I just -- I only tend to turn up in the discord now if something's going wrong? As in, technically wrong and I need to make sure it's releasing properly _(laughingly)_ so I mostly turn up with bad news and then leave.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

To be fair, I'm -- I'm enjoying my status as, uh, essentially a-a-a some sort of chaos god within the -- the discord where I'll just turn up and everyone is like: _(excitedly)_ "O, O JONNY'S HERE!" and then I'll leave.

#### ALEX

_(laughingly)_ Jonny... And -- and then yeah, you'll leave Anil to clean up all of the mess we make. 

Um, OK, cool, I'm going to jump back onto a cast one. Uh, oh, one I've sort of answered already actually, uh, it's from [__*erin*__]: How are your feelings on Martin as a character change since season one? 

I can summarize this one really quickly.

#### JONNY

Yep!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Uh, much like a certain type of smelly cheese. 

##### [Jonny laughs a bit in the background]

Martin needed an aging and maturing process in order to reach his full, flavorful potential at the start he was very, very fluffy and just there as a nice little foil. As things progressed it was like "Oh, there was a person underneath the foil. Oh, they're wonderful! Oh, they're not wonderful, they're problematic!" By season four, end of season four, I'm actually, I'm -- I'm fine with Martin now, he's -- he's matured nicely, he's ready to be spread over a delicious cracker and eaten.

#### JONNY

For me, it -- it's less cheese metaphor and more in season one Martin was -- yeah -- a-a fluffy character to unleash some worms on.

#### ALEX

Pretty much.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Um, and since then he's very much, uh, deep -- and we -- we always had the overall plan for his arc, but planning an arc and getting a sense of how that arc progresses are two very different things.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*geo*__]: In previous seasons it has appeared that the only people who had supernatural encounters have been the ones giving statements to The Magnus Institute.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Right.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But in season four we heard about The Archivist getting statements from essentially random people on the street. Approximately what percentage of people in the Magnus-verse have had an encounter with one of the entities? 

#### JONNY

Well, I mean, they're random people on the street, but they're random people on the street who've had encounters with the entities. Uh, it's -- it's not the case that everyone who's had an encounter with the entities has gone to The Magnus Institute. I mean, I haven't really thought about it, but if I was going to just guess a number I'd say maybe... five to ten percent of the people in the Magnus world who've had an encounter with the entities have ended up reporting it to The Magnus Institute or, uh, one of the other, uh, organizations.

#### ALEX

And... running the numbers in my head on the fly in order for this universe to make any sense the percentage of the general population that has been exposed to the genuinely supernatural must be less than about one percent?

#### JONNY

I'd say probably everyone has brushed up against them.

#### ALEX

_(surprised)_ Really?

#### JONNY

Just -- just in -- in the sense of like -- I mean, everyone has that thing that they're like, "Someone? Is there someone...? No. OK, I'm fine." Uh...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

But it must be less than one percent of the (i don't know what alex said here) in every way?

#### JONNY

Maybe, yeah, maybe like 10 to 15 percent have had like...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

A spook.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

A spook of what you might just think of, like a slightly ghostly encounter that is not significant enough to delve into...

#### ALEX

Didn't really go anywhere.

#### JONNY

Yeah, and maybe -- maybe point one (.1) percent have had a legitimate...

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

Like it's a small enough number that it's not the -- they're not going to speak up to anyone who's not like: "Hey, _(archivist voice, ominous)_ tell me your story."

#### ALEX

Alex-narratologist here, I recommend anyone interested in that reading up on the technique of writing known as the "Masquerade." It's a trope or conceit. The idea being there's the world behind the world but there's quite a lot of writing on how many people within your world are allowed to see behind that curtain before your world breaks?

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Um, I'm not going to go into it here, it's a whole field of study, but it's interesting, I'd recommend it.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Onto to another writing question.

#### JONNY

Yep, yep.

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*amber*__]: Which would you each consider more important: resolving all the mysteries you created or giving compelling arcs to all the characters you created? Do you ever find if there is a difficulty in balancing those two things in the story?

#### JONNY

Uh, arcs and yes.

#### ALEX

I would agree, for the simple reason that for a character arc if you left the character arc unfinished you are wrong.

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Like -- y-- you have done a bad story. If you leave a mystery unanswered as long as it is a type of mystery that is allowed to be unanswered.

#### JONNY

Yeah, in some way, it's not the dichotomy that it might be presented as...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Because if you know the answer to the mystery when you've start the mystery then not answering is... less of a danger. Uh...

#### ALEX

As long as it stays consistent like you don't change your answer half way through writing and not anyone. Which happens for anyone.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah. The -- well, the d-d-danger is the urge to change the mystery to better support character arcs or to change character arcs to better support the mystery.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Really dangerous.

#### JONNY

That's where -- I mean -- that's where the balancing act is. Uh, and I think there are a few in Magnus that have been slightly changed their shape, uh, or the answers as they've gotten deeper, effectively, have, uh, interacted more with people's character arcs? But this is one of the advantages of writing, uh, the mysteries where the wider answer to the mysteries is categorically were known from the start, but a lot of the smaller details, a lot of the smaller threads are still unconnected and those are the things that can be threaded through a character arc. I think an unsatisfying character arc is more of a weakness than of an unsatisfying mystery.

#### ALEX

I've never thought of it before. I suppose, an unanswered character arc is just a mess. An unanswered mystery is still a mystery? It's just an unanswered one.

#### JONNY

Well -- it's why -- it's why stuff that is pure mystery tends not to have a character arc.

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

I mean, you read a Poirot book. Like Poirot is not having a character arc...

#### ALEX

_(dramatic)_ What if he doesn't solve this one, Jonny?

#### JONNY

His -- his character arc is man who is has not solved a murder... _(pauses)_ 

#### ALEX

_(laughingly)_ ...Solves a murder. 

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

Arcing into man who solved a murder. Um, and it's -- and it's because, yeah. There's not conflict there between arc and mystery.

#### ALEX

I don't know. I loved to read a Poirot where it's the one where he doesn't solve the mystery and he just has to deal.

#### JONNY

Oh. Well I mean, if you *do* want a Poirot mystery that has an arc for him, uh, "Curtain: Poirot Last Case" is probably the one, the last Poirot mystery 'cause there's an arc.

#### ALEX

OK.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

I mean, I'm not going to say what it is -- 'cause *spoilers*.

#### ALEX

You are beyond -- you are beyond my sphere of knowledge at this point. Poirot is not something I've done a deep dive on.

#### JONNY

_(provokingly)_ Well, the deep dive is really, really good.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Right, we're going to jump to a com-- a-a--

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Little Belgian solves crimes. _(not convincingly)_ It's wonderful!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

We're going to jump on a -- to a misc.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, misc.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Which is from [__*lucille*__]: How do you feel about the growth of the fan community during this last season and the increase of fan creations, cosplays and so on, as often as high-trending on tumblr after the release?

#### JONNY

I mean, short answer: terrified.

#### ALEX

Good! The -- the correct answer is good.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY

The...[*chuckles*] It's a really interesting thing because as the fandom has grown it's not longer a-a-a monolith, well, it was never a monolith, really, but it's no longer it's more or less a unified group. I need to be a lot more careful how I interact because things that I would say potentially i-ingest, like, they have resonance now I can't simply have -- I can't have an opinion on my work because my opinion is not an opinion.

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

My opinion is something that people can take and deploy in fandom contexts and it's -- it's very much like... I have made a big party and as I have made this big party I myself have grown, so that I am now a huge stone giant. So, if he attempts to attend the party he will destroy the party and everyone will die because he will -- I will crush them with my giant stone hands. That's how I feel.

#### ALEX

_(realization)_ Ah, you're the kid that made the enormous lego landscape that got so big that you can't play with it anymore.

#### JONNY

Uh, yes.

#### ALEX

See I have it far easier. I -- I just have my new shield which is just working really well which is "Mate I -- I just work here," I'm the mechanic that you bring your story to and I'm like, "Well problem is there, you've got a bust carburetor, mate, and y-your character arc, that's well out, and that's gonna need complete replacing, mate. Oh."

OK, we're gonna -- we're gonna to jump onto a cast one again. [__*caslandend*__]: Which guest voice actor were you most excited or just very excited to have on this season?

#### JONNY

That's really hard actually because I wasn't here for most of the guest recordings?

#### ALEX

This season has had you out of the studio more than any other, actually.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Like. I *really* was looking forward to working with Alasdair, um...

#### ALEX

_(laughingly)_ How did that go?

#### JONNY

_(incoherent sounds)_ I -- did we have anything?

#### ALEX

You had one scene.

#### JONNY

We had *one scene* that we actually recorded together.

#### ALEX

Alasdair, who plays Peter Lukas, has never been in the same room apart from once in passing to say hello and the other was leaving with Ben who plays Elias. Elias and Peter has never been in the same room.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yep....Yep.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

For a recording. That's *bananas*!

#### JONNY

Yeah. Uh, Also, uh, John Henry who played, uh...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Oh yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Arthur Nolan. We're friends but we're -- we never really see each other, so I was really looking forward to -- to actually, uh, hang out to -- 

#### ALEX

How'd that go?

#### JONNY

Wasn't there. Wasn't there.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

Um, so yeah.

#### ALEX

_(joyful)_ I've met everyone! It's been lovely!

#### JONNY

OK, you can answer this question!

#### ALEX

So, I was very happy to get to work more with Alasdair and I have to, in front of everyone, I have to give him, uh, a big thanks because out of everyone he ran into an enormous technical glitch, twice in a row!

#### JONNY

Oh yeah.

#### ALEX

Not avoidable, not a thing that we could necessarily prep for, y'know mechanical failures happen -- that kind of thing, and the absolute trooper for two massive pick up sessions in a row! Recording opposite people who *weren't here* so he's recording in isolation making enormous journeys to do it. So he -- he sort of became my MVP by the end of the season.

#### JONNY

He is officially the loveliest man.

#### ALEX

I had good fun as well working with Karim.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh yeah.

#### ALEX

Just because he had the most fun! Where a lot of the direction consisted of: *Are we thinking more "I want to kill everyone in the room" or are we thinking more like "Here are some cookies?"*

#### JONNY

I actually met Karim for the first time last night and, uh, he's lovely.

#### ALEX

I was also *really* glad to get Fran and Ian that's, uh, Trevor and um...

#### JONNY

Oh. yeah.

#### ALEX

Julia, back in the studio!

#### JONNY

Oh, yes, I was there with them. That's fun. I always like -- I always enjoy recording with them.

#### ALEX

'Cause not many people know as well, but Ian originally started as an editor for us, he was editing with Rusty Quill for like a year? And then suddenly went "Also, I'm a professional performer!" And well, *bury the lead*. So, it was good getting them back into the studio that -- that was good fun. But honestly this season's been kind of been a little bit of a candy store. Where --

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

I can say that now, at the time it meant that all casting was a nightmare. But after the fact it does mean "Oh, I get to work with this person and this person," but, yeah, Alasdair has to win most MVP.

#### JONNY

And I know he's listening so, *he's looking at you*.

#### ALEX

OK, I'm going to jump on a production question. 

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

That's a weird, I'm sorry.

##### [Both laugh]

#### ALEX [CONT.]

This one is from [__*planetsandmagic*__] and I should've seen this one coming. I'm going to read this in the tone I believe it was intended.

#### JONNY

_(unsure)_ OK.

#### ALEX

_(concerned)_ Alex, how's it been directing this season?

##### [Jonny laughs heartily]

#### ALEX

That's a question that's written literally, but is definitely meant as a "*How ya doing? How's things?*"

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I can probably answer it for you, actually, if you'd like.

#### ALEX

Go for it.

#### JONNY

Uh, _(Alex-sounding)_ directing's been fine, directing's actually been quite fun, I've got to work with a lot of good people. The editing and production has been... *baaad*.

#### ALEX

Yeah, it's been bit hellish this year. Um, there were a couple of issues that we had to do with... sort of delayed casting and things like that which meant that we had a lot of... *very* short turn arounds due to [*takes a breath*] stuff happens? Life stuff happens.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah. 

_(amusingly)_ Also there was... what was that -- there was something that was happening in September? That was -- it was a -- it was a -- mate -- there was a massive problem I remember, um.... Someone -- someone was getting married? I think?

#### ALEX

_(firmly)_ That was not a problem! That was -- _[Jonny laughs]_ In fact that was the only thing that was actually fine! That was -- Yes. I got married. I got married during this season um which was fine that all went *swimmingly,* um, but, uh...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

It was lovely. We got very damp in Wales.

#### ALEX

It was a very, very complicated season this year. If I was being cruel, potentially over-complicated but...

#### JONNY

That would be cruel.

#### ALEX

But I don't know what... we could really cut?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah like...

#### ALEX

I feel, like, anything that we shifted from the sake of production, we -- we bent the story as far as we could before the story could literally change.

#### JONNY

If we made production easier we would've made the story worse. Which might have been a trade worth making at a certain points, but it's not one we did.

#### ALEX

So... Yeah. There's a reason why we're taking a longer season break and a bigger run up because you can only sprint for so long, basically.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

And yeah, editors were real troopers on this one actually, there was a lot of, with the Alasdair stuff is a good example, *hi, you were gonna have a week for this, um, it went wrong we did a re-record but it went wrong, you have two days to do a week's work* and people stepped up, so yeah, that was amazing. So Jonny's right, directing yes, production no.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Onto another story one, this is from [__*atomicpleb*__]: As an ace person --

##### [Jonny laughs after Alex says the username which makes Alex stop and laugh too]

#### JONNY

_(laughingly)_ Sorry, it's just a great name.

#### ALEX

_(laughingly)_ It is a good name. 

__[cont.]__ As an ace person it really means a lot to have John as asexual representation in a podcast. Can I ask at what point in planning the podcast you decided to make that happen?

#### JONNY

That's a very good question and it's a difficult one to answer because it's one of those... where... it wormed its way into -- sort of -- essentially my head canon quite early in the writing process and then later, I think during season two when it started to actually become more textually relevant we, sort of, we were discussing it and we -- yeah -- nailed down the idea, but it's -- it's a really tricky -- it's a tricky question to answer as to at what point that character inkling became a canonical facet?

#### ALEX

T-the issue is: It gets muddied up at our end in a way we haven't really discussed before in that -- during the initial, like, story development and pitching and so on, it was explicitly stated that The Archivist that -- you have to discuss what type of story you're telling. 

##### [Jonny makes an agreeing sound]

__[cont.]__ Straight out of the gate we were like "Cool archivist. Does The Archivist have any kind of, uh, romantic arcs at all through this?" And we were both like "T-this isn't a romance." 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

"It's a horror."

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Joke was on us!

#### ALEX

Mm, yeah, well. 

But what that did is that it muddied the waters a bit so genuinely yeah head canon from pretty much from the outset, but i-it sounds silly like we didn't expect it to be a thing.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

The thing is I remember -- the thing is I remember a conversation at some point during season one where we were sort of discussing what we thought the various characters' sexualities were? 

##### [Alex in the background agreeing]

__[cont.]__ And it was like, "Yeah -- no -- I think John's ace," and, um, Alex -- Alex was like "Yeah, no, that sounds -- that sounds right." But at the same time that wasn't a planning conversation in the same way --

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, it wasn't us going to have a-a sit down.

##### [Jonny agrees in the background]

__[cont.]__ I think out of everything from the entire series to date that's been probably the biggest one that has had the largest impact that I most underestimated.

#### JONNY

Yeah. I did not anticipate the reaction and it's -- it's lovely. Uh, but yeah, I-I didn't anticipate it would resonate as hard as it had?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

It isn't something -- it isn't something we put a little red mark to *make sure you handle this* *correctly*.

##### [Jonny agrees in the background]

__[cont.]__ Like, I feel like we have?

#### JONNY

I think so.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

But --

#### JONNY

I don't think we would've -- I don't think we would've made it explicit if we weren't confident we'd done it reasonably thoughtfully.

#### ALEX

Uh, so, we have one question set aside --

#### JONNY

Yep! 

##### [Jonny makes agreeing noises when Alex is addressing this question]

#### ALEX

Which is the elephant in the room question which is a big question and we knew we'd end up having to answer. So, this one is from quote-loads of people.

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX

Does The Archivist/John, uh, reciprocate Martin's romantic feelings for him? People have been commenting on the ambiguity of the nature of his feelings and would there be an explicit or authorial confirmation on whether those feelings are romantic or not?

#### JONNY

So, this is both a very simple answer and a very complicated answer.

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY

The simple answer is, uh, yes he reciprocates it -- it's a romance -- at least I have written it as a romance.

#### ALEX

It's has been intended as such --

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

It is intended as a romance, however there is obviously a much bigger conversation about death of the author and if that's not how people... read it -- there -- hm -- I wrote a lot of drafts of 159 and there were a lot of versions where the archivist emotional state during it was a lot more explicit and they all rang incredibly false.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

It didn't work!

#### JONNY

Because unfortunately I've spent -- we've spent four seasons building up a character who...

#### ALEX

Is an emotional let down.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Is an emotional wreck. He's -- yeah.

#### ALEX

He's a mess of a not-human.

#### JONNY

And so I think the scenes that we ended up having are the most true to the characters. I think there probably will be more explicit aspects to it, going into season five?

#### ALEX

I believe so, yeah.

#### JONNY

But, at the same time I, as the author, can not tell people that they are people for wrong for interpreting things in a -- in a different way, like, I don't think people who read it as platonic are necessarily wrong in how they respond to the text. But yeah authorial intention is that as a romantic but also it's a horror series and it's -- was the focus of season four because it was the emotional call that led to uh the culmination of the series?

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yep.

#### JONNY

But it's going to take more of a backseat I think in season five?

#### ALEX

I think there is two things to take away from it: is one, you can't tell someone how to receive a text and you shouldn't tell someone how to receive a text 'cause that not how art works? Um, so if someone is receiving a text differently than you that's fine! The other one I would say that is quite important is the ambiguity, in 159 especially, was not intended as a way of being deliberately ambiguous so people were left guessing?

#### JONNY

I'll be honest --

#### ALEX

It was a symptom of accurate characterization in terms of how they communicated with one another.

#### JONNY

I'll be honest, I... I mean to me it was very much, uh, a culmination of a -- a culmination of a -- of a love story scene.

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

And it saddens me a bit that the fact that there wasn't the specific words: "Yes, I love you too, Martin."

#### ALEX

And then they kiss. Yeah.

#### JONNY

Yeah. O-oh that is one thing I will say unequivocally, you will never hear a kiss in The Magnus Archives because audio-only kisses are the worst thing in the world!

#### ALEX

_[overlapping slightly]_ T-they sound terrible -- like, it's not an option. There -- There are --

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

_(adamantly)_ No one is kissing. No. One. Is kissing in the Magnus Archives.

#### ALEX

There are a couple of ways of making it less offensive on the ear but it still sounds like someone is eating chewing gum at you.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

It doesn't work on audio, I'm afraid. It never will, it's the nature of humans and ears! No one likes other people kissing in their ears in that way. It doesn't work!

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

So, yeah. Fundamentally, uh, it is intended as romance 

##### [Alex makes an agreeing noise]

Uh, it will continue to be so through season five, though it will not be the focus, uh, but at the same time if you interpret it differently, if your reactions to the text are different, uh, I mean, you're not wrong.

#### ALEX

'Cause it's art.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

That's how art works. 

##### [Alex laughs]

Cool. A separate writing question now.

#### JONNY

Yes, yes.

#### ALEX

Uh, this one is from [__*drbrainbox*__]: Have the predictions/theories on reddit influence your storytelling in any way?

#### JONNY

Uh, short answer no. Uh, I use the different social medias in, to, sort of, check different things, discord I generally use to check the immediate fan reaction to a new episode. Twitter, I mean, that tends to be where I actually engage with people. Tumblr, I use to check the -- how the emotional arcs of characters are being received and reddit, I use to check how many people are successfully guessing -- well, were successfully guessing about the mystery, because generally with any given mystery you want a few people on reddit to be right about it and quite a few to be *kind of* right about it and a few more to be absolutely wrong.

#### ALEX

And I really -- my favorite is if someone is absolutely wrong and is the loudest in the room.

#### JONNY

Yeah, that's -- that's great. But occasionally you'll stumble across a thread and you'll be like "Oh, now that's -- that's exactly, you've -- you've got it!"

#### ALEX

I can -- I can say this now, there's been at least one, maybe two, this is across all social media, so there's no way you'll be able to track 'em down who said: _(dramatic, small)_ "Hi, um, I have a little pet theory it's probably nothing bu-bu-bu," and just laid it out! Just --

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Just laid it out every beat the whole lot there.

#### JONNY

_[overlapping]_ And we'd be like "Yes! You got it, mate!"

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

And we're like "Good for you!" and then about forty people would come in going: "Erm, not so sure."

#### JONNY

Or actually quote a few people read: "It's a good theory, but there's this or this or this..."

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah, yeah

#### JONNY

"That means that probably won't be the case." 

So, when you have reveal of a mystery you want a good balance of people feeling validated, people feeling sort of half-validated sort of half-surprised and people who are just straight up didn't see it coming and so, I tend to use reddit to check where people are sitting on that sort of scale.

#### ALEX

From __[nellybean]__: A lot of fans were throwing around theories and two big ones turned out to be true, specifically the Jonah-Elias overlap and The Watcher's Crown. Is it cool that the fans have managed to predict this or is it incredibly frustrating and annoying?

#### JONNY

No, it's brilliant.

#### ALEX

Yes, great.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Like --

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

It means you've done your job right.

#### JONNY

Yeah, absolutely, the prioritization of shocking everyone with a big twist is the bane of long term mystery writing.

#### ALEX

It is a trap!

#### JONNY

Because over the long term if you've done enough foreshadowing that the twist is going to feel earned. People are going to guess it and if you see that guess happening and you feel *oh no, they've guessed the twist*. *I need to change the twist*. I-its a trap, you're -- you're absolutely shooting your, uh, your mystery in the foot and making it much less satisfying just because you don't realize that half the joy of a solved mystery is the validation of the people who got it right.

#### ALEX

Yeah. I mean don't get me wrong, feel free if people are getting too close to throw more red-herrings in the mix.

#### JONNY

Oh, yeah.

#### ALEX

But that's different, there's the -- there's the old adage -- what -- an ending needs to be both surprising and uh inevitable.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND] 

Yeah.

#### ALEX

That is true. What it doesn't mean is that your ending needs to shock the very foundations of every reader.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND] 

Yeah.

#### ALEX

What it does means it that more people will go "Oooh..." That's -- that's the goal.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND] 

Yep.

#### ALEX

A-a little "Oooh..."

#### JONNY

Also more people have predicted the twist the better you need to write the reveal. Fundamentally.

#### ALEX

Yeah, that's fair, actually does raise the stakes into delivery.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Like, I'm very, very happy with how we actually dealt with the Jonah-Elias reveal because everyone kinda of guessed it and something we foreshadowed quite heavily so we really went all out on the -- the flavor, the actual...

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

Yeah, um, the actual writing of the reveal, uh, so it's not like a *(gasp) oh my god, I-I never guessed!* It's *yes! I was right and this is really cool!*

#### ALEX

There's a -- there's a benefit actually to not reinventing the world, I mean -- OK, bad choice of words, but your reveal doesn't have to be so enormous, because it reduces the exposition reload as well.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

If you need to have massive, enormous shocker that's coming from nowhere that means your villain has to sit down and monologue, I don't mean like monologue like how we got away with, I mean proper *so two weeks ago I did this and then I did that* we've managed to cover it up to a degree, but the more that your mystery makes sense and you aren't having to do that shoehorning at the end.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

The less clunky it's gonna feel.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Like our monologue, I was quite happy because it was mainly recontextualization.

#### ALEX

Yeah, exactly.

#### JONNY

It was saying "Oh yeah, remember this thing?" Actually it fits in this way as opposed to "Well in order to support this twist here's some *new information!*"

#### ALEX

Yeah, yeah. 

So this is from [__*4chinchillas1raincoat*__], presumably an undersized raincoat, chinchillas are not very large. Uh...

#### JONNY

But if they get wet, uh you've got to dry them very carefully and make sure they get a dust bath otherwise they can go moldy and die.

#### ALEX

It's true!

#### JONNY

That's -- their fur is so dense it does not dry naturally.

#### ALEX

It's true. What's been the worst normal job you've ever had?

#### JONNY

_(wearily)_ All of them...

#### ALEX

I will jump in here --

#### JONNY

_(loud-whisper)_ All day jobs are bad!

#### ALEX

And say my track record for work is longer than it should be due to me starting way younger than I should have and additionally most of my first jobs as a result were* really* illegal enterprises that got shut down. I was not --

##### [Jonny chuckling in the background]

#### JONNY

Wow.

#### ALEX

I was not being illegal...

#### JONNY

_(intrigued)_ I didn't know this.

#### ALEX

So, let's -- I can - - I can run through the list there was one job where it turned out every Monday they hired people...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Right.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

You worked with them for a week and then they fired everyone on the Friday, but they say, of course, come back on Monday and we'll rehire you.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(realization)_ Right!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Meaning that their taxes for all employment was zero. Meaning that they had all these sales-based things that were not applicable.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(realization)_ I see!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

That was one example. There's been another one --

#### JONNY

_(dramatic-posh)_ A fine education for an entrepreneur!

#### ALEX

There was another one where it was fine, but I got told off a lot because I wrote something down at some point? 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

You what?!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

And it turns out that -- that the cost of shredders for the immediate evacuation of the office, if it was audited, was so high that they were like *just remember things* 'cause they couldn't afford the shredders to shred their records. 

##### [Jonny makes an agreeing sound in the background]

Like my work history is checkered and messy with other people's immoral decisions.

#### JONNY

My work history is broadly dull, uh, I've generally worked, uh, a series of just incredibly, medium, low-key demoralizing but fundamentally not egregious office jobs. We actually met --

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Shared.

#### JONNY

We actually met at... one of my favorite jobs actually!

#### ALEX

Genuinely one of the cushiest gigs I've ever got!

#### JONNY

So it was night-shift seven days on, uh, seven days off.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY

Uh, and you'd get in at 10:30, you'd leave at 6:30.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yep.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

And you'd spend the evening -- it was a medium enturing company, so you were -- uh, you were writing articles summaries and checking that everything that had come in the system, uh, had come in correctly and there weren't any sort of irrelevant or, um, like articles that whatever client wouldn't want to see and then you'd hit spacebar to reject them! And it was silent --

#### ALEX

Utterly silent! I've never heard a -- eight -- eighty people at one point?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Just *pure* silence.

#### JONNY

It took about forty percent of your brain and the rest -- this was actually -- this was about, what? Six years ago now?

#### ALEX

I spun up a company at the same time I was working it in the same office on the same computers at some point. It was great!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Uh, and I was listening to -- this was before the, sort of, the podcast boom had really hit?

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

So I was listening to, uh, a lot of Pseudopod, uh, and a lot of, um --

#### ALEX

Please tell me Lights Out.

#### JONNY

Yeah! No -- no --

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah!

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Like this is when I was -- like because there weren't as many, sort of, horror podcasts. 

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yep!

#### JONNY [CONT.]

I found this uh -- this archive of old, vintage radio shows and I was sort of listening to Nightfall from the 80s and, yeah, Lights Out, uh, with all of its ironized yeast adverts, _(his iconic accent)_ *five to ten pounds of good new flesh!*

#### ALEX

_(iconic accent)_ *Good, new flesh!*

#### JONNY

_(iconic accent)_ *I'm just so tired of this new war job of mine! I sure am discouraged!*

##### [Alex laughs throughout this ironized yeast advert]

#### ALEX

_(laughingly)_* If only I had more flesh!*

#### JONNY

_(iconic accent)_ *Say, why don't you try ironized yeast! It just costs just pennies a day! Maybe you need more vitamin B12 and iron!*

Um, yeah. Uh, and we -- we sort of met in the not-silent, but still pretty subdued kitchen of that job, um.

#### ALEX

True.

#### JONNY

Though we didn't actually start work together for a couple of y-- 'till I'd actually left that --

#### ALEX

Yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY

Left that job.

#### ALEX

We met, but we didn't really do anything at the time.

#### JONNY

We -- we met and got on really well!

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

Um, and then the -- the year I left, you came to see The Mechs up at -- The Fringe or...

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Oh, yeah, I keep saying that, Jonny kept going on about this weird creative gig that he was doing. Like, I'm *sure* it's good, I'm sure it's fine.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Sure. And then I actually took upon one and went: "Oh no, it's really good!" _(laughingly)_ "Oh, oh, I'm -- I'm the bad person! Oh..." 

_(defeated, laughingly)_ It's really good!

#### JONNY

To be fair, you say that, but the number of friends I have who do *really* good creative things and e-everytime they're like: "Oh yeah, I've been working on this," and I'm like _(small)_ "I still haven't gotten to it to actually... watch it..."

#### ALEX

Yeah. a little bit.

#### JONNY

So I can't really... uh, I can't really be mad at anyone else for us not...

#### ALEX

Well, I've said it before, I've bought four albums in my life: Paul Simon's Graceland and three Mechanisms albums.

##### [Both burst into laughter]

#### ALEX [CONT.]

That's it! That's all the albums I've ever bought!

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

We've gone a little bit off topic from, uh, from what jobs that you worked.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, we have, sorry, I'm gonna -- I'm gonna bring it back on, I'm gonna bring it back on. OK, cool. Good question from uh, is it "fla-ming" or "flam-ing" cobalts([__*flamingcobalts*__)]?

#### JONNY

I think it's "flam-ing cobalts"?

#### ALEX

OK.

#### JONNY

Uh, one of our *vintage* fans.

#### ALEX

So, was it intended to have for Alex to play Jared Hopworth or was that a late decision out of necessity and how far did that influence the voice distortion in that episode?

There's about three layers to this question.

#### JONNY

Yup!

#### ALEX

First one is, there were casting issues which made things awkward, so we do a casting system where there's like a-a tier of people where there's like, six people per role and then you have like a, highest preference and lowest preference and it's not based on talent, a lot of it is based on, like, availability and stuff like that.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

I mean yeah.

#### ALEX

Ultimately, working our way through the list and --

#### JONNY

It's one of those things about... this industry, uh, certainly, like at this level, is being able to show up on time and, uh, like get stuff done is... 

##### [Alex agrees in the background]

Often a lot more important than being the absolute best voice actor in the room.

#### ALEX

Sad truth is that there is no shortage of talent in the world, but there *is* arguably a shortage of conscientiousness sometimes. So, it sounds -- it sounds strange.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Sometimes.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But, yeah, turning up on time is a *big* plus. So as it stood we ended up with --

#### JONNY

Full disclosure, I overslept this morning, and was over an hour late.

#### ALEX

But it's not been a hour late *every single* time.

#### JONNY

No.

#### ALEX

And -- and --

#### JONNY

_(gleefully)_ Sometimes two hours!

#### ALEX

So, in terms of Jared Hopworth, we actually ended up going through pretty much all of our choices quite quickly. Also, we did something that you should never ever do, don't do -- 

_(parent voice)_ Avoid this kids!

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(wearily, straining)_ Learn from our mistakes.

#### ALEX

_(parent voice)_ Don't smoke behind the bike sheds and also don't go *you know what this person we were going to cast as Jared Hopworth would work really even better in this other role.*

#### JONNY

Oh yeah.

#### ALEX

And then just slowly exhaust your Jared Hopworth options.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(firmly)_ Mhm! Mhm!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Going where they're going to be better here and they're going to be better here and then suddenly realize we had given away all of our Jared Hopworths.

#### JONNY [overlapping]

Well, no and the ones we hadn't given away couldn't turn out. Couldn't make it.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Literally couldn't do it. They weren't in the country, things like that, so, then I ended up doing a test audio showing that I could do it. However it is a bit frustrating to me in that it didn't need as much vocal messing around as it had the reason for a lot of the vocal messing around is -- its in the corridors. 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh, yeah. Sorry about that.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Like in the corridors of *the most messed up* soundscape that there actually is the one that changes speech the most.

#### JONNY [slightly overlapping]

So -- we were changing Alex's voice so it wasn't as recognizable we were adding in some meat sounds because *meat sounds!* 

#### ALEX

Yep! 

#### JONNY [CONT.]

*They're good!* And then we were also adding corridor distortion for a jus-- a just cocktail of, uh, in retrospect, potentially un-optimum?

#### ALEX

Yeah, so we ended up in a situation where it ended up having a lot more effects than you really should squeeze into mp3? 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But it was -- j-just story things, unavoidable. He's made of meat in a corridor made of unreality and who is three to five times of a normal human being like...

#### JONNY

_(songily)_ Sorry!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

These things stack up! Um, so this is a nice quick one that relates to some of the stuff we said earlier.

#### JONNY

Mhm!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Which is [__*sazandorable*__]: You both talked in the past about the problem of including swearing in the show. What was the process that led to Martin, who's known for being polite and voiced by Alex, drop an f-bomb?

#### JONNY

I wrote in the script, Alex looked at it and said yeah this is the right time and I said, yeah, isn't it? Because while it wasn't the most plot bomb revelation? 

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

From a personal point of view, from the character's point of view, this was possibly the biggest discovery -- this was the discovery that most recontextualized everything about their situation.

#### ALEX

Plus, I mean, for the sake of script efficiency "I can't even," is three words.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

And that explicative is two words.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

So, you know -- is -- is -- is an optimum choice.

#### JONNY [overlapping slightly]

It was jus-- we -- we -- we drafted the -- the scene a couple of times and that was easily the -- the best version of it.

#### ALEX

Plus it was funny!

#### JONNY

It was funny!

#### ALEX

I like funny.

#### JONNY

And also, shortly after we recorded it, I stumbled across the fact that there was a tumblr that was called "Has Martin..." something like "Has Martin Blackwood said [beep][^3] yet?" Um...

[^3]: Clearly said "fuck" here.

#### ALEX

Oh yeah, when we hadn't -- we weren't aware of it until after we'd done the recording. Which was quite nice.

#### JONNY [overlapping]

And I was like... _(feigning concern)_ "Oh sweet, summer child, you don't realize that you're a countdown..."

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Right, I'm gonna jump onto another story one cause we're getting through these now which is nice.

#### JONNY [overlapping]

Please, please.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*bowjesterreel*__]: Did the desolation really kill Gertrude's cat? And was that her primary motivation for waging war on the fears? Because that's pretty realistic for a cat person.

#### JONNY

Iunno.

#### ALEX

There are some mysteries as we've established that don't need answers.

#### JONNY

Although I-I've got a very small amount of trouble for this because my state of policy, one of the state of rule of _Magnus_ is if we meet an animal, if we meet a pet, specifically, it won't come to harm within in the episode and some people feel that Gertrude's theoretical, possible cat breaches that rule which I personally disagree with because, I mean, there is animal death in The Magnus Archives.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Mhm.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

The point of the rule comes out of "Arachnophobia" with Major Tom because we actually got a surprising amount of feedback saying that people were having legitimate difficulties listening through the episode because as soon as Major Tom was introduced it took them out of it because they were too busy worrying about the well-being of the cat to actually properly engage with the horror. 

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

So, it's very much uh, so while also I don't -- I don't particularly like violence against animals or -- or animal death and this sort of thing but it is very much a practical rule saying if you -- no, if you meet an animal, if you meet a pet specifically within the context of an episode you don't need to worry about it dying. You can assume it's safe and engage with its story.

#### ALEX

A better way to say it would be if in all these historical accounts that we've had from Gertrude there was a cat present that Gertrude was spending loads of time with and having a chill, you don't kill the cat as a punishment as another character.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING MID-WAY THROUGH ALEX'S RESPONSE]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will... We're not going to kill that cat! 

#### JONNY

But at the same time I don't feel like saying that there might be theoretically been a cat who died fifty years ago actually breaches that rule? Also, it might not have existed, it might have been a joke, I don't know.

#### ALEX

No, you heard it here first everyone: Jonny Sims *hates* cats.

#### JONNY

_(softly)_ I have two cats. Don't...

#### ALEX

*Hates* cats.

#### JONNY

_(softly)_ Don't say these things...

#### ALEX

OK, on to a writing one again! This one is from [__*chris sterling*__]: Was it your intent from the get go to have every major character in The Magnus Archives be some flavor of queer or was it just a coiencidence?

#### JONNY

I mean not from the beginning.

#### ALEX

I would -- I would go so far to say neither.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

We didn't have like a checkbox list that we have to hit, but similarly coincidence implies that you just kind of free-wheeling it and you don't put any thought into it.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

But, the -- well -- the -- the -- I mean there --- there were some that we obviously put thought into it, because the relationships are important and like there are, I mean, there are plenty of characters whose sexuality has never been explicitly addressed. Also, you get a lot of straight characters out there, that's nice to have some others.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

_(straining, whisper)_ It opens story options up as well! If you're gonna be -- if you're gonna be a -- _(normal)_ a like, horrible puppet-master story writer you get more options with a broader pallet of characters.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I mean that's true.

#### ALEX

You just do! It makes things easier, not harder!

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Follow up related to that question from [__*eliza*__]: How do you avoid tropes like queer-baiting and bury-your-gays as a thing when writing?

#### JONNY

Well a lot of it is just trying to be thoughtful, be aware of these tropes, and have a wide enough context in a -- in a diverse enough cast and, uh, world that you have story options but they don't necessarily push you into these problematic tropes.

#### ALEX

Yeah. I-I can't really add anything to that, it's as straightforward as you can really get in an answer.

#### JONNY

It's like there are plenty of, uh, like female characters who do conform to certain -- *oh, this isn't a great stereotype.*

#### ALEX

Sure.

#### JONNY

But at the same time there are enough female characters that it's not... *Oh, there's one female character and she is this problematic stereotype.*

#### ALEX

Yeah. honestly if you just have a broad enough set of people within your world that's properly balanced.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

And you treat them like people!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

And you all treat everyone the same?

#### JONNY

They're like -- they're -- you treat them like characters rather than like types.

#### ALEX

We're going to move across then to another misc one.

#### JONNY

Mhm!

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*abaghoulandel*__] and I know a few people have asked this.

#### JONNY [background]

Right.

#### ALEX

But *were there* any good cows?

#### JONNY

_(softly)_ I mean obviously that's a...

#### ALEX

_(incoherent sounds -- flustered sounds)_

#### JONNY

Daft question! You've ever seen a Scottish cow?! They're great!

#### ALEX

_(excitedly)_ Great! Great cows!

#### JONNY

_(excitedly)_ They're these fluffy, shaggy things!

#### ALEX

And depending on where you go they're left alone for like...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

A month for a time, easy if not more. They're just...

#### JONNY

Utterly unguarded, easily huggable.

#### ALEX

Doing their own thing! 

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY

I mean don't -- I -- I cannot take any responsibility who attempts to hug a highland cow. Uh, so if you injure yourself doing so, that's -- that's not on me, that's Alex's fault.

#### ALEX

I mean statistically speaking they're one of the most dangerous animals.

#### JONNY

_(surprised)_ Really?

#### ALEX

A lot of people act *really dumb* around cows and that's why.

#### JONNY

_(surprised)_ Huh.

#### ALEX

A cow is -- when you get up close, spot Alex you grow up in the middle of nowhere and it doesn't come up that often, um, cows are both very, very big and meaty animals that everyone thinks are dumb and you can do anything you want around them. That tends to go badly. Being dumb around cows is the same as being dumb around any other animal.

#### JONNY

Fair enough. So, you heard it here, second? Don't be dumb around cows.

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY

But there were good cows because... Scot-Scotland's full of them.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

They're *great* cows!

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

K, we are going to jump all the way back around to a cast run then. This is for you, Jonny!

#### JONNY

Mhm!

#### ALEX

_(incoherent sounds)_ Sort of for you, you'll see what I'm getting at.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

OK, OK. OK.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*gilliganmonger*__], uh, read as written: Does your *mom* know --

#### JONNY [overlapping]

Uh, I'm sorry, my what?

#### ALEX

Uh, *mom.* Uh, etymologically, I think, it is related to the word mother...

#### JONNY

Ohh! My *mum.*

#### ALEX

Yes! Sorry that wasn't clear.

#### JONNY

Yeah, yeah.

#### ALEX

Does your *mum* know how much the fandom absolutely loves her portrayal of Gertrude? What does she think of her immense popularity?

#### JONNY

She's vaguely aware, I haven't actually spoken to her about it since, uh, 160 dropped. Um...

#### ALEX

Oh, neither have I, actually!

#### JONNY

Yeah. No, but she's -- she's having a real good time, uh, in terms of the reception of Getrude. I remember, um, earlier in season four, uh, I -- I'd given her a script, uh, for Gertrude for particularly ruthless about something and she gave me a call and we were arranging, uh, the recording and she's like "Gertrude's is -- I mean, you know, she's a -- she's a bit of a -- a bit of a 'b' isn't she!" 

##### [Alex laughs]

__[cont.]__ And I was like, "Yes mother, she's quite ruthless." Um, so yeah, she's having a real good time with it.

#### ALEX

Basically I was really disappointing this season because I didn't allow a cackle.

#### JONNY

_(surprised)_ A what? She gave a cackle?!

#### ALEX

No -- no -- no, she was -- she was *begging, begging* to give a cackle. She was like, "Can I cackle here?" 

"It's not -- Gertrude's not really a cackler."

#### JONNY

She's not a cackler.

#### ALEX

"But it's such a good cackle moment!" And word for word, "And Alex you may not be aware but I have an *excellent* cackle, here let me cackle for you."

#### JONNY [background]

Yeah, I'm sure.

#### ALEX

It was an excellent cackle...

#### JONNY

Do we -- do we have it on tape?

#### ALEX

Uh, yes! There is, it's -- it's buried somewhere, I will see if I can find it.

#### JONNY [overlapping]

Patreon bonus!

#### ALEX

Your mom does an excellent cackle. Gertrude's not a cackler.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh yeah! No, she's -- no, she is not.

#### ALEX

And your -- your mom was *well* disappointed by that.

##### [Alex laughs]

Uh, this is from [__*agvz*__].

#### JONNY

Grand.

#### ALEX

Season four was my favorite so far in terms of sound design, what is your creative process...

##### [Jonny laughs at Alex's pain]

#### ALEX [CONT.]

For building soundscapes and has this changed over the course of the series?

#### JONNY

My -- my process is... My process for sounding -- my -- my --

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

_(mocking, direct)_ What's *your* process? Give an example of *your *stage direction, *Jonny*.

#### JONNY

My process for designing stage direction is, uh, I will -- I'll have an idea and, uh, then I'll write it in as *unhelpful* or counterintuitive way as possible. Uh, such as: "The world goes wrong." Uh, Is a -- is a classic. Uh --

#### ALEX

I feel like you may have done one somewhere, although it might have been in season two where it's something you genuinely put some version of "It's all a bit much," something like that.

##### [Jonny bursts into laughter after hearing his stage direction]

__[cont.]__ "It's all a bit much."

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

That sounds about right.

#### ALEX

It's just like I don't -- 

_(flabbergasted/incoherent sounds)_ 

_(tiredly)_ Wha-what's that even mean?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

In my defense, it was all a bit much, Alex!

#### ALEX [overlapping]

W-what does that *mean...?!* It's *all* a bit much.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And then -- and then I'll hand it over to Alex and Alex will say, "So what does this mean?"

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Cool, I need to know -- I need to know *interior, exterior, type of day, weather...*

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And then I'll be like "Interior or exterior, what a good question conceptually given this space exists outside of time, hmm," and then Alex will say "Just go away, I'll -- I'll figure it out."

#### ALEX

Well no, we have interior, exterior, and a wind of eldritch, that's fine. Edlrich is fine.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

E-L-D dot.

#### ALEX

It means try to make it sound weird without making the speech unintelligible which is fine until we're revisiting an old eldritch, 

##### [Jonny makes an agreeing noise]

__[cont.]__ and you can't pull the same tricks, i.e. Jared Hopworth situation. 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yes.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Uh, so interior, exterior, weather, time of day, and I think, I had added an extra --

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

_(like get off my back!)_ They just happen at some point, *Alex*, I don't think time of day is -- like no one cares about what time of day it is!

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I've added an extra criteria that I haven't told Jonny which I have been keeping a note of which is an extra column in there: Nonsense, question mark.

##### [Jonny begins to giggle a bit]

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

They're all nonsense! 

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Which is, "What nonsense has Jonny forgotten to mention." Which is the kind of thing and you do this and then it'll be like "Oh, I did -- y'know, I didn't write it, there is a brass band playing the entire time, I don't know how that fell through the loop."

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(shocked)_ I never put in a brass band!

#### ALEX

But that kind -- that kind of thing. In terms of how you build it, unf--

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(plainly)_ It was woodwind.

#### ALEX

Unfortunately, I've made a bit of a rod for my own back in Magnus, in that we have a very set of consistent rules regarding soundscaping that people have picked up on, in a good way, so it's stuff, like, static applies in certain situations and doesn't. 

##### [Jonny agrees with a "Yeah."]

__[cont.]__ Types of static are different, that kind of thing. Which means handover in terms of soundscaping is a bit of a nightmare at this stage.

#### JONNY

It's a weird one as well because it means that a lot of -- there's a lot of theory that's being built around different sorts of static. Static is something I've been very *bad* about consistently writing into script.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Oh it's b-- Oh it's been consistent from *my* end. 

#### JONNY

Yes, I know.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

To the point where I've had to insist on extra stage directions to pick out when something is compelled or not and things like that. 

##### [Jonny makes a noise like realization]

__[cont.]__ But the -- the secret, a secret that I don't like admitting that in Magnus: I'm still doing the soundscaping.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Vocals are done by, uh, a couple of people, Elizabeth Moffat, I'm going to shout out in this one, she's been really good this season, she's -- she's excellent, actually.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Thank you, Elizabeth!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Um, Brock Winstead has been doing *most* of the music, I think it's been one or two he hasn't...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Oh he -- we actually shot him as well!

#### ALEX

Yes we did! He is the erm... cop.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

He's the... the police officer in America.

#### ALEX

I forgot his name, I forgot the cop's name... _(incoherent sounds)_

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Um, Mustermann? 

#### ALEX

Yes, yes, yeah, he's Mustermann. Um, so he -- he got shot...

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

'Cause he's actually American, so we were like, hey can you -- can you -- can you be a American cop and then get shot by an old man?

##### [Alex chuckles a bit]

#### ALEX

Um, but --

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And he said yes!

#### ALEX

In terms of soundscaping, it's a bit thing I can't go into here, I could run workshops that would last a long time, but generally speaking the best way that we do is you find out where the thing is happening, you add in three layers, you need a close layer, a mid-layer, and a far layer and you need a bass layer, a mid-layer, and a treble layer. How those two interact, so you could have distant treble and close ba-ba-- y-you basically have to hit those or otherwise your soundscape is going to feel a little bit flat. There's an exception of The Archivist office which is a dead room and has been from the beginning, but that beyond it's a lot of finding the right sound effects or recording one yourself and then tweaking a tenth of a second, fifty, sixty times and lots of listen to it, not right, listen to it, not right, and just trial and error. I'd love to say there's a magic source, there isn't. It's just, you keep pouring time in and stuff comes out the other end.

#### JONNY

Alex is randedly over-complicating it as always. You just write it in italics.

#### ALEX

Ah, there's y-you know what Jonny's right.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

You just -- just -- just left line write in italics. Square brackets! That's -- that's -- that's the key.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Or, you don't write it in italics and you just go "Oh, yeah that's isn't a -- that's isn't a thing," after the fact.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And then you remind them later. No, that's -- it's actually very simple.

##### [Alex sighs in defeat]

#### ALEX

Don't request soundscape changes after it's recorded, that's it, that's a good one. *Don't do that.*

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I -- I -- I've never done that. I've never done that.

#### ALEX

Jonny's never done that, don't do that. That's a -- that's a no-no.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

I'm not gonna! I'm not gonna!

#### ALEX

That -- that -- that what's...

#### JONNY

I was listening back to 160.

#### ALEX

Oh yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Uh... And I was thinking... Uh...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Mhm, don't do that.

##### [both bursts into laughter]

#### ALEX

You're here to write. 

Right, OK, we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep going. Um, this is a story-related one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yep. 

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Which I know a lot of people have asked. Uh, didn't Martin say that Gertrude has been shot at least three times when he saw the body, yet the recording of Elias only has one gun shot?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Something happened in the sound editing. Some might say that someone --

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

The tape finished before he took the next two shots.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Someone might say that, uh, a certain soundscapers misread -- misread the script? Um...

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

The -- the tapes stopped and then Elias took two more shots.

#### JONNY

Y-- so basically what happened in canon and this is the one time I will, one hundred percent, this is word of god, after the tape stopped, turned out Gertrude was too much a badass to die from just a single gunshot, she lunges at Elias! Elias screams, uh, like, uh, like a scared child and fires wildy, three times, misses, Gertrude gets a machete from under the desk!

##### [Alex is making small bursts of laughs as Jonny gets more and more outlandish and then bursts into full laughter]

#### ALEX

Cackling.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Cackling! 

##### [Alex laughs]

__[cont.]__ Lunges at him but, ah, two more shots in the chest and Gertrude... finally goes down. It's not that Alex misread the script.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I -- I need this, I need this formally on the record.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

That is a hundred percent not it.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

OK, cause this -- this is the kind of thing that can get away from us. 

Hi everyone, this is Alex speaking as Alex, this isn't even like Alex as character, just Alex being Alex. This isn't a thing. The fact that there was one gunshot there is not a thing. It -- it's not. It's just -- I think I made a gaff over a hundred and sixty episodes, and I'm sorry. I've disappointed you and more importantly, I've disappointed myself.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

_(how could you)_ You disappointed my mother, Alex. 

_(normal)_ I mean I don-- I don't -- I don't know actually. She -- she's fine.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

##### [groans]

_(softly)_ Oh, no. I categorically haven't, your mum loves me. She thinks I'm great. 

_(normal)_ Tell you what we can do George Lucas in ten years we can remaster it and Gertrude shot first! 

##### [Jonny laughing heartily]

#### JONNY

Yep.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

_(sad, disappointed)_ Aw, that all got real. Aw, I'm so disappointed.

#### JONNY

That's alright. I'm sorry mate.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*bonegod*__]: If we were --

#### JONNY

Is it?!

#### ALEX

It is. It's from [__*bonegod*__].

If we were to take one less moral from the story thus far what would you like it to be? Sometimes, OK, people make mistakes in, uh, editing and that's OK, and it doesn't need to be -- it doesn't need to be linked at all.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

It's important to forgive. It's important to forgive.

#### ALEX

A lesson or moral!

#### JONNY

Oh god, it's a -- it's a really difficult one, because Magnus, certainly seasons three and four, have for me been an examination of a lot of questions about choice and responsibility and what your responsibilities, I guess, are...? When you find yourself in situations which we all do where you are beholden to forces larger than yourself and the idea that what you can do is constrained and what the results of your choices are -- are unclear and you can take actions and you can do things and the results of those actions aren't actually up to you. But that's very much me working through a lot of my own thoughts but I don't really have an explicit moral it's a -- it's a -- it's a really difficult question and a difficult situation both in the show and in real life. Um, it's like, I've seen this quite a lot of, uh, discussion about the ending of 160 and whether it means that, uh, for instance, or Gertrude's actions were pointless, or whether Tim died for nothing.

#### ALEX

Hm. Oh yeah. Yeah, good point.

#### JONNY

And it's a real complicated question because on the one hand, I mean, kind of yes, like this is horror on a cosmic scale and one of the cornerstones of cosmic horror is fundamentally that the actions of the individual broadly speaking are never going to do good.

#### ALEX

Pretty much.

#### JONNY

But, for instance Tim... didn't actually save the world, but that wasn't really what he was there for. He was there for revenge. Nobody involved knew quite how pointless, I guess, their -- their whole...

#### ALEX

People were telling him please don't go off on a massive revenge spree cause it won't quote, fix your problem.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

But also... But also it is still very much the closure of his arc. I mean very few of us actually get our real life arcs closed saving the world.

#### ALEX

It's my --

#### JONNY

And that doesn't mean they're pointless.

#### ALEX

It's my most favorite to start a story, it -- it sounds peculiar. There's nothing I enjoy more is starting the story with an -- a death that is not significant. So, not a death that is an opening to a mystery, it's a -- it's a personal preference, I love a character that has died and that's just a thing that's happened as opposed to uh -- uh a something you hang the coat on, if you know what I mean.

#### JONNY

But no, like Tim's story is a -- is a tragedy but I don't think it's the revelation of it's lack of meaningful consequence within the wider universe invalidates those choices. Like the choices we take are our choices regardless of what their actual result turns out to be.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

It's the same with Gertrude, in many ways Gertrude is kind of me working through a lot of my thoughts on the idea, you know, the end justifies the means because Gertrude does full on atrocities, she does horrible ruthless things in order to, from her point of view, save the world and turns out at the very end she didn't need to. Uh, and even that -- those actions fundamentally spurred the -- the course that -- that brings about that end and it's the idea that the ends may justify the means but you can never be sure what those ends are actually going to be.

#### ALEX

Gertrude is an excellent demonstration of something I've been doing a lot of reading about in the last year. Just pure like personal interest. If you're interested look into both the mathematics and the actual just philosophy of existential risks as a thing.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

There's a huge amount of writing that people will start to realize is a lot of Gertrude in there which is talking about if there is an existential risk where literally everything's at stake there is an argument to be made that all acts on morals if they mitigate that. It is not a -- to be clear, this isn't a stance, this is a philosophical view --

#### JONNY

You heard it here first folks! Alex...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Yes.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Just wants to do a lot of murder to save the world.

#### ALEX

But if I put the entire world at risk first it makes all of my actions as fine.

#### JONNY

_(surprised)_ Oh, that -- smart!

##### [Alex laughs]

__[cont.]__ Loophole!

#### ALEX

But in all -- in all seriousness Gertrude's a good example of that because it's a good way of tying it back to the cosmic horror, which is the world is complicated and it actively doesn't like you. So --

#### JONNY

Yeah, it's an uncaring hostile universe.

#### ALEX

How'd you deal with that, generally speaking, as a character, you either find your own meaning, which means that how it interacts with the wider world as long as your own meaning intact is OK, which I'd argue, Tim sort of hits that note.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Or you engage on the Gertrude route which is, no, all of this determined externally in case you get in some really weird personal morality because one of them gotta give, y-you can't have both.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

You can't be objectively and subjectively in the right, really? It doesn't really work like that.

#### JONNY

Yeah. So, I don't think there are any core morals of Magnus. You create fictional spaces that, they're not necessarily direct metaphors.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But they work in a -- in a space where people can put metaphorical frameworks on them and see how they -- see how they stretch.

#### ALEX

There's nothing more didactic than going in and saying, _(dramatic)_ "Here is the takeaway lesson!"

#### JONNY

Yeah! And also because there -- there is no -- there are no easy answers to these questions that can be neatly popped in podcast format.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY

You know, like I -- people have put, uh, like obviously people quite often put a-an anti-capitalist sort of, um, metaphorical framework over _Magnus_ which, a hundred percent, works, um, but it's not quite as simple as the entities are a metaphor for capitalism.

#### ALEX

Yeah. Yeah -- yeah -- yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

You know? The entities can be a metaphor for a-a-a lot of things, um, and I hope that _Magnus_ provides people a space to work through their own thoughts on stuff.

#### ALEX

Mm. 

K, so we're going to round up this first Q&A with a -- one last question.

#### JONNY

OK.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*chuckingwoods2000*__]: Alex --

#### JONNY

Chucking 2000 woods?

#### ALEX

No, [__*chuckingwoods2000*__].

#### JONNY

Chucking a wood 2000 times?

#### ALEX

Chucking -- OK, it's clear --

#### JONNY

Or the 2000th?

#### ALEX

It's clearly a --

#### JONNY

Or 2000th chucking wood?

#### ALEX

It's clearly a 1970s horror, based on like, how much wood would a woodchuck chuck, but the remake in the 2000s, where it's like a reboot.

#### JONNY

Or it's just a name "Chucking Woods" and there have been one thousand, nine hundred, and ninety-nine ancestors of identical names.

#### ALEX

Let's assume that. So, "Chucking Woods the 2000th" I guess...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

_(sounding proud)_ Mhm! 

#### ALEX

According to Jonny? Alex, picture this, Jonny just fell into a lake --

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh no!

#### ALEX

Drunkenly waving the complete season five script in his hand.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

G-awww! _(making noises)_

#### ALEX

Do you save him first abandoning the script or do you just take the script and go home? OK, I'm really sorry "Chucking Woods"...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Why did I drink so much!

#### ALEX

You -- you have fundamentally misunderstood the level of paranoia that I have. I rescue Jonny, laugh at the script that's kicking around in there knowing that if Jonny hasn't gotten multiple digital redundance cloud saved in separate locations that on his head be it, and then I'll put him back in the water. So honestly, I -- I don't -- I don't feel like there's much of a quandary there because if he hasn't - -

#### JONNY

Yeah, the -- the -- this scenario assumes that Alex hasn't pushed me into the lake because he was dissatisfied with the season five script.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

You know what, that's also a valid point. If Jonny's in there with the only copy of the script, Jonny deserves to be in there. 

##### [Jonny laughing quietly]

__[cont.]__ Because he has violated all of the safety protocols and I can't be held responsible for what I do in that situation.

#### JONNY

But at the core question, uh, of whether Alex sees me as a valued friend or a -- a writing machine I think is... 

##### [Jonny doesn't answer; silence; jonny.exe has stopped working]

#### ALEX

And I think that pretty much wraps up the Q&A. Um, for _(laughingly)_ this episode. We'll -- we'll be returning for another because we had way too many questions.

#### JONNY

So many questions!

#### ALEX

Um, so yeah. We're -- we're basically gonna do an, an -- anti-climactic "bye."

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yep!

#### ALEX

Immediately carrying on at this end.

#### JONNY

_(super enthusiastically)_ BYE! 

##### [Alex laughs]