---
layout:          post
title:           "MAG100.5 - Assistants Round Table"
date:            2018-05-10 12:00:00 -0400
episode_type:    [special, incomplete]
tags:            []
categories:			"tma"
podcasts: ["tma"]
title_prefix:	"MAG"
prev_categories: ["tma"]
prev_prefixes: ["MAG"]
next_categories: ["tma"]
next_prefixes: ["MAG"]
prev_episode:   ['1004-rustyfears-paint']
next_episode:   ['101']
prev_episode_num:		['100.4']
next_episode_num:		['101']
prev_episode_title:		["Paint (Rusty Fears Winner)"]
next_episode_title:		["Another Twist"]
episode_title:   'Assistants Round Table'
episode_number:  '100.5'
summary:         "Happy last week of hiatus! Join us behind-the-scenes as the familiar voices of the Magnus Institute's archival assistants break character to discuss their thoughts on performance, inspiration, and horror. As an added bonus, here is a short must-read (or play) list from Alex, Mike, and Lydia: <br/><br/>* Alien Isolation - Creative Assembly (not read but play!) <br/>* Blindsight - Peter Watts <br/>* Dracula - Bram Stoker <br/>* Swamp Thing - DC Comics (Alan Moore) <br/>* The Dunwich Horror - H.P. Lovecraft <br/>* The Shadow over Innsmouth - H.P. Lovecraft <br/><br/>Stay tuned for a shiny new Magnus episode next week!"
content_flags:   [Spoilers!, Gruesome horror prop discussion]
acast_url:       https://play.acast.com/s/themagnusarchives/mag100.5-assistantsroundtable
formats: 
official:        false
unofficial:      http://www.youtube.com/
unofficial_name: YouTube CC
unfinished:      true
wiki_url:        
---

##### [BEN THANKS PATRONS]

##### [INTRO MUSIC]

#### JONNY

Rusty Quill Presents.

#### CHORUS OF VOICES

*The Magnus Archives!*

##### [LYDIA DOES A WITCH CACKLE]

#### ALEX

_(mumble)_ You're the worst. Right. _(clear)_ Hello and welcome to our assistant special of *The Magnus Archives.* We're in our season break at the moment, and we thought we would take the time and catch up with some of the assistants for the Archive, cause we all listen to a certain Jonathan Sims... rather a lot, on *Magnus Archives.* So I thought we might spend some time with people other than Jonny!

With that in mind, who have I got with me today?

#### MIKE

We got Mike, who plays Tim Stoker.

#### ALEX

And...

#### LYDIA

And Lydia, who plays Melanie.

#### ALEX

So first things first, then. Obviously, you play Tim, Mike. You play Melanie, Lydia.

#### LYDIA

Well done, yep, that's it.

#### ALEX

And I play Martin.

#### MIKE

Solid remembering.

#### LYDIA

Good job there.

#### ALEX

So what do you *actually think* about your own characters?

##### [MIKE GROANS, LYDIA CACKLES AGAIN]

#### MIKE

I knew the heavy stuff was gonna come out for this.

#### LYDIA

_(hiss)_ *Noooo!*

#### ALEX

I'm happy to lead the charge and say, whilst Martin's lovely, I think he'd drive me completely up the wall.

##### [THE OTHERS GUFFAW]

I think -- I'd be like, "No, you're lovely, stop, just -- stop, stop! Just go, go visit pets at home and stroke some animals for me, Martin, and you'll feel better."

##### [AGREEING NOISES FROM OTHERS]

But for the rest of you, how -- what, what're your actual takeaways of the characters that you play?

#### MIKE

Well -- gone, then I'll go next. So my, my character, I've always found a -- well, since Season 2, I've found a bit of a struggle.

##### [SNICKERING]

Mostly because he started off very happy-go-lucky and sort of, you know, very lively, very chipper, and then, the -- well, without... am, am I allowed to give spoilers?

#### ALEX

Yeah, you are.

#### MIKE

Amazing. Well, towards the end of Season 2, everything kind of goes to pot, and Tim becomes _(laughing)_ *horrendously* depressed, to the point where my character was the polar opposite of what I was originally brought on to do.

#### LYDIA

_(laughing)_ It was bait-and-switch, really!

#### MIKE

Yeah, it literally was the best bait-and-switch.

#### ALEX

_(pleased)_ That worked really well.

#### MIKE

Which -- don't get me wrong, I enjoy it. I do really enjoy it. It gives me a moment of quiet contemplation so I can consider my life decisions at least once a month. But like, at the same time, I -- if I were to meet Tim, I'd just slap him!

##### [SURPRISED BURST OF LAUGHTER]

A full backhand as well! _(inaudible)_

#### ALEX

He's had a rough -- he's had a *rough* time of it.

#### MIKE

He's had a *very* rough time of it. But --

#### ALEX

He's had a *very* rough time of it. 

#### MIKE

But -- come on!

#### ALEX

But look at his support network! Or, the lack thereof.

#### MIKE

Lack thereof, yeah. I think that that is the main problem, is that there is no predefined support network for Tim. He needs, like, something to pull him out.

#### ALEX

Anyone. _(drawn out)_ *Anyone.*

#### MIKE

After that happens, if that happens, it -- things will probably get better for Tim. But hey, we'll have to see.

#### LYDIA

Yeah. It's a horror podcast, I'm sure that --

#### ALEX

They're gonna be fine.

#### LYDIA

-- getting a wonderful support network --

#### MIKE

Yeah!

#### LYDIA

-- and the tools to work through his traumas --

#### MIKE

Yeah, yeah.

#### LYDIA

-- and lots of hugs and puppies, is *exactly* what's gonna happen.

#### MIKE

Well, the thing is, they'll be readily available, but never accessible.

##### [LAUGHTER]

#### LYDIA

Like Tantalus's support network!

#### ALEX

Well, that's, that's still brighter than what I was thinking. The tools to deal with your problems, in the *Magnus* universe, generally consists of some kind of book, or, like, a gun or a knife or fire. Fire's a good one.

##### [MIKE MAKES AGREEING NOISES]

#### LYDIA

_(laughing)_ Being oblivious seems to be the only power!

#### ALEX

Yeah, you know what, so far, yeah! Be completely oblivious, there's your solution.

How about you, Lydia? Playing Melanie. How have you been finding it, how do you -- what do you think of your character?

#### LYDIA

I -- I still want to know why and how she was shot by a ghost!

#### ALEX

*I want to know that too!*

#### LYDIA

Right?! *I! Don't! Know!*

##### [MIKE CACKLES]

Right? Is that --?

#### ALEX

None of us do!

#### MIKE

None of us do.

#### ALEX

Like genuinely, the only person --

#### LYDIA

That *wanker* Jonny. Will not -- he won't tell me.

#### ALEX

The only person who knows is Jonny, and he has abjectly refused to tell us.

#### LYDIA

_(inhales)_ _(plays it cool)_ Eh. It's a, it's a *little* frustrating.

##### [MIKE CACKLES SOME MORE]

#### ALEX

It's only a major defining character moment that drove you back towards the Magnus Archives.

##### [LYDIA GROANS IN FRUSTRATION]

#### MIKE

_(laughing)_ Yeah, exactly, it's not like you need to know what your motivations are!

#### LYDIA

_(laughing)_ Yeah!

Right, so I started out -- obviously I started later than you two, and when I came in I thought it was probably gonna be for a one-off early on, and, er, the only characteristic that I gave her, really, it was the, it was -- you know. "How far is the rod up her arse, on any particular given day." And since then I've sort of developed that into, well, she -- it's very important to her that she seems competent.

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### LYDIA

And she needs to lash out the moment that she doesn't really know what's going on, or that she thinks other people think she doesn't know what's going on. And so yeah, that's _(laughing)_ the one way you could hurt her the most. Probably, like -- yeah, I think her ideal torture would be something like the Spiral, where it's like, she's given a test. And she hasn't studied for it.

##### [ALEX SNICKERS]

#### MIKE

Or potentially, like, IKEA furniture. When she's the only one and doesn't have a handbook.

#### LYDIA

Yeah! Or like, the Allen key doesn't quite fit.

#### MIKE

Yeah.

#### ALEX

But there's other people doing it, who *do* have all the bits, and they're doing really well?

#### MIKE

Yeah, yeah.

#### LYDIA

And it's fine, right?

#### MIKE

And everything's okay, like --

#### LYDIA

Yeah. So why is it --

#### ALEX

And they keep offering to *help.*

#### LYDIA

Yeah. _(roaring in anger)_ Arrrrgh!

#### ALEX

"If I wanted help I'd've asked for it!"

#### LYDIA

Exactly, exactly.

#### MIKE

_(delicately navigating copyright rules)_ Non-branded He-Man, smash green things, smash, right?

#### LYDIA

Smash, smash anger, yes.

#### MIKE

_(wisely)_ Smash anger.

#### LYDIA

Um, yeah! So. She's still got some cheer in her, which is ridiculous, I think? The last time I played her she was inviting Martin to the pub.

#### ALEX

Yes! Yes.

#### LYDIA

So there's, there's actually some, some happiness, which is obviously... A Cruelty.

##### [THE OTHERS CACKLE]

#### ALEX

*Playing* the character, so we -- obviously we know like what you think about them and stuff like that, but when it comes to actually playing the characters, obviously, like, for all of us, these aren't... us. Like, they're *really, really* not us as people.

#### LYDIA

_(laughing)_ Yeah! I mean, like, _(struggles for a second)_ Tumblr. Tumblr, you would have absolutely no sympathy with Alex in *real* life.

##### [MORE CACKLING]

#### LYDIA

I'm right, he's awful! __No kittens__ for Alex.

#### ALEX

But in all seriousness, obviously, like, you have to have an in. You have to have an in for your character, you have to have a way to get in and actually, like, portray that.

#### LYDIA

Yeah.

#### ALEX

So I'm curious, because -- Mike, starting with you. You've had the most change. Because your "in" initially, when we were sort of going over character stuff, was very much, yeah, that positivity, and it was that -- it was almost like if the Magnus Archives needed to have a PR face...

#### MIKE

_(laughs)_ Yeah.

#### ALEX

...it'd be Mike? You know, "Come join the Magnus Archives! We've got books!"

##### [LYDIA CACKLES]

#### MIKE

Yeah, he does the finger guns and everything, he points, like, you know: "We got merch! 

Most of the characterization for that just consisted of reining it in a bit. yeah exactly now that's kind of gone so wash you're in now because I'd actually say that you're getting really good at just switching, as a character, "Tim," on and off. Well, I feel -- I mean this is a horror podcast, but I feel like you're gonna bring the tone down now. So basically in the Season 1 stuff, like you say, it was very -- is very easy for me, because my, my character outside of the character is very -- I filled it very lively and bubbly and if you saw the Christmas livestream, then that -- that basically is who we are as, you know, as people. And having to make that switch around Season 2 was very, very difficult. That was tough in the beginning, for the beginning of it. Literally -- you know -- you guys probably don't know, who are listening, but we have show notes at the, the, in the middle and at the end of everything that we do. And Alex sits through and takes us through a couple of his thoughts, and we discuss ideas about how we could have played that scene differently or better or whatever.

It's almost like respecting your actors, but --

But not.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Al-almost like giving a helping hand, but it -- with the helping hand is also a whoopee cushion.

So what we actually, what we ended up doing, Alex and I during the beginning a few times, was that we'd sit down and Alex would be like, "You have to be less of that."

Yeah. I think you were thrown by just how hard a change the character had to go, because at first it was very much like, okay, so you want it still to be sort of like, Tim, just maybe a little bit of things -- like, no no no. This is like, *broken.* Completely broken. There is nothing -- no hope left about anything. And that, in the beginning, was very difficult. But now, if going back to the original question, my "in" to getting there is actually to think about everything in my life that has gone *wrong?* And then that is how I hit the tone of Tim.

When I come into the recording studio, that's -- because I mean from Tim, like the way we were discussing as a character, was, like, we only really started making progress when I realized it was best to just -- you are not playing *Tim* anymore.

No.

You're playing another person who is still called Tim.

Almost like -- because it was just, yeah, we had to take it right back down to zero. I mean, like you said, it's very much a case of we had to go back *beyond* zero. I feel -- to kind of get to where I am with Tim now, because I have to remove everything from my mind that was what Tim was in Season 1 and know that that character is still there underneath everything else -- listens it feels like there's still, there's still like, the shape of the character there, because it's coming out now as very dry humor. And what's sort of clever about it is, it's not an *empowered* dry humor, it's not a "I'm laughing at what's happening to me," it's just -- it's a really bitter dry humor.

Lydia, playing -- playing Melanie, what's your, what's your "in"? 'Cause again, I think we had a harder time with it at the start, but you've gotten really good, similarly, at just sort of adopting that persona now.

So I am __not__ a voice actor. I, I've done quite a lot of recorded stuff, but it has always been *me* doing the work. And I really struggle with a lot of kinds of performing, because I essentially don't have a poker face, and I've worked quite hard on a lot of things like improv skills and presentation skills.

So like, you're a very skilled speaker.

Yeah. That's things I do as *me.* And so it's actually quite strange, I haven't actually acted as another character, in terms of, like, how the character themselves is. I tend to think of, what, "Is she doing work that she's proud of right now?" So in the first thing, where they're in the, the old hospital --

Oh, yeah.

The frustration is her job didn't work.

Yes.

And she doesn't understand why.

Yeah.

And so she's old(?) but that's almost more of a problem than the, the fear?

Mhm.

"I saw this thing and I don't have the answer." Whereas, like, she's, she's the producer, right? Like, her whole character is that she's a producer. She makes stuff happen and she makes stuff work, and she knows people, and she gets things, too. And then, in quite a few other things -- like, *all* the things that have happened since -- there was something spun out, and like, where she went and broke into that train carriage, it's all very planned.

Yeah.

She's a producer. She works that -- "I had to do, I had to go. There, there was a lot of security, but I found a way in."

Yeah, yeah.

And then it all spirals out of control, and so this is *horrible* for her.

Something that -- I actually think that she quite enjoyed the time that she read the statement of the guy in the bed, because there she's doing her job at the end. She's going through all the files, and as you say, "What this is -- okay, this is a working day." And you know, sue me, I'm not gonna spoil it too specifically, but you know -- there's a lot of things where there's a, "Okay, here's a terrible threat to you that -- someone's made a horrible threat. What's the obvious solution?"

I actually was bit annoyed that it was done so clumsily.

Well, I mean, if I was Melanie, which I sort of am, because I happen to know that what she's using wouldn't really work. You know? You think --

She's under *a lot of pressure.*

Yeah. So --

And that's why I think -- you know, it makes sense for her to click with Basira.

So, yeah. When it comes to playing Martin there's a bit of a weird juxtaposition there, because on the one hand I'd argue that he's been used earlier for a lot of the comedy -- like again, he was, he's a foil. He's a foil to the, the Dour Archivist. But on the flip side, that isn't enough for a character, so it meant that we've had to sort of dial up things other than just, "Oh! Wocka wocka wocka. How inept!" But part of that means that, when it comes to playing Martin, I basically looked back, picked all of the things about myself that I left by the wayside in a younger version, and then just make that the entire person to --

All of the worst bits of Alex about ten years ago.

But obviously, the caring thing, I mean, that's a *weakness.*

But yeah, like that nervousness, obsession with trying to make things work, and so on -- like, I basically just hunted down a bunch of negative characteristics.

Yeah. It's true that needing to fix everyone is definitely something that you --

Oh, it's something that I -- so common. And then you, you do genuinely have to kind of like, sometimes: "Yeah, Martin, not everyone will like you all of the time. Okay, Martin?" So, very much an eighteen year old. Like, that's what Martin -- like, I realized the character is not good an 18 year old where someone older comes along, goes: "Listen, one, people are gonna hate you. Two, that's okay. And three, you can't fix everyone." You know, exactly  -- yeah. Blessed of intention. Yeah. So I, like, that's me just hunting down for all of the hard lessons.

So can he --

Genuinely, *genuinely,* when I listen to Martin on *The Magnus Archives,* I just want to give him a hug. And then I have to come in and play a character I'm obliged to hate. "The narrative gods require me to ruin your life." Okay, so how will you want us to call you now someone you do everything yeah twice

So what were your favorite character moments, then? So we've been sort of discussing a few specific examples in any type, whether it was horror, just good acting, funny, whatever. For your character, specifically, what would you say are the bits that you actually, like, really enjoyed? Because certainly from my perspective I find it really hard to do that, because for me it's always -- I'm looking at the work. So I've started going, "Argh, could have done *that,* I probably should have tweaked *that,* I could improve *that,"* so I found it quite difficult to home in on... "I really enjoyed this." production Wilson And well, we started with me a few times, do you wanna go first? I'm happy to go first. If it's gonna say -- so there were a few of mine that I liked. I liked doing "Dig," and because doing the statements is a nice moment where you can kind of lay aside the character that you normally play and play sort of someone else. And I'm especially been enjoying them recently because I'm -- it's almost like I'm not doing the statement, I'm doing an impression of how *Jonny* would perform this statement.

Right! I see. Mm.

So there's an added layer to that which makes it quite fun and quite interesting. And from, like, from a comedy perspective, it -- I know for a lot of people it's cringe humor, and I personally hate cringe. you the was improvised So whilst the statement, like, we had a couple of bullet points to here, and one of them was that, that she's under the impression that she's gonna get paid. But pulling out money and paying for it was just off the cuff. And I -- entire tape that we finally used was basically Lowri *desperately* trying to not react out of character as she's crying with laughter, suppressing it, 'cause it came from, like, completely left field. So that was good fun, because we got a great take literally on the other side of the microphone, is I have her biting her lips. So it's quite nice. I enjoyed that. I can't wait if there's offcuts of that kind of lie I did enjoy that a lot

So my favorite would be -- I can't remember which episode it was, but the first time I came in and had an argument with Jonny, on --

Yes. So at that point you were still quite early on.

In oh yeah yeah and news does according under blankets, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the fact that -- so me and Jonny have known each other ten years, and from the beginning that was through comedy theater at university, and -- but we just could not keep a straight face. And well over an hour, I got a long time like five minutes Eh, yeah, I can believe it, but -- but I mean, that actually means that the energy in the thing is people that are frustrated were not really well known tapered and that's because like we're both looking at each other, *daring* each other to crack up. I think there was -- like, by the end of it there was just, like, the complex web of in-jokes about the fact, because the -- the light on the corridor as well. So, so we will record under a blanket in Martin, Martin and Sarah's corridor, and the light in the hallway was disco. A disco light. Yeah. So you're under a blanket, shouting at each other, and then you can take it off while Alex is reviewing the sound and working out how to direct your next tape, and you're like... and then you just start dancing each other and trying to wind each other up in -- as different characters, while also winding each other up as real people. It's a total rollercoaster ride. Don't miss the disco corridor.

I loved that corridor! Yeah, all the time, every take.

So what was yours? There are a few, there are a few that stick out. I think one of my favorite scenes to shoot was the one where Martin and Tim -- and the backstory to this was the, the recording that we were doing at that point was in the corner of a room, and so it was Martin and Tim running away from not-Sasha, and then having to run down corridors by the layers and then pant and be out of breath in a corner. For about eight takes. And that was before we set the audio running, so that we would actually be out of breath by the time I got to shoot.

Everyone likes the exciting episodes, you know, where a lot happens, as a way of breaking it up. I cannot stress enough there is no better way to feel like a complete ___, pretending to have fights or pretending to run, like, recording combats? The worst. Yeah, makes you feel like such an idiot. But it was good fun. Sprinting at a wall over and over. And we were actually jogging on the spot as well! Like, to try and get ourselves in the mind of the character. I mean, the, the production level, like quality level on the *Magnus* and *Gaming,* I, like, I can say -- it's absurdly high. Because I don't do any of the work, like, it's Alex and his team of extraordinary editors that do that. But it means that, like, the stuff that they end up demanding of us in order to produce the right foley or the right kind of attitude or the right... you get some very bizarre asks.

Finishing up, then, with a last bit of, like, how -- what is your relationship with horror? So *you,* as a person, not your characters. Let's not get, like, really meta with it or anything. But for each of you, how are you engaging with horror, how are you interacting with it, even if it's just, "I hate horror." Which I don't think is the case for either of you? But nonetheless. Like, how do you engage with it as a genre?

So I have no interest in being upset-scared by media.

Sure.

But I have a long relationship with horror as a thing to make, and a thing that is -- that has an interesting kind of commentary on the world.

Yes.

But like -- we were talking earlier, actually, today, about, like, the British horror tradition. Which, from *Vertigo* and Alan Moore and Karen Berger, which I see *The Magnus Archives* as being, but it fits very nicely within that tradition because very -- it's politically aware, clever psychological horror. There is of its time and reflects kind of ideas and fears of the current kind of era. So yeah. So we near earlier, but, like, the arc of Swamp Thing, where it starts out so yeah I B-movie type guy turns into a comp off in a place, they get blown up and the wife dies, because motivation. That's what we're good for, guys. Turns into a compost heap, and then wants to, like, avenge, because that's where we are, and it's pretty B-movie -- it is a good B-movie -- but then Alan Moore comes in and it changes. Like, there's this incredible kind of shift as it becomes a-about identity and bodies and psychology and your own connection to the earth, and it has all those weird LSD sex scenes.

See, I'm for that, specifically. I was always fascinated with -- because it was allemaal that really dove into it, the whole "he's fine unless you're afraid, and then the fear, like, hurts, so then he gets, like, aggressive." Like that's, that was a lovely way of exploring a lot of stuff. Absolutely. Because, shocker, people who work on *The Magnus Archives* are interested in the fear as a mechanism. And, yeah, so, yeah. I love horror as a mechanism to talk about interesting scary things. It's good lens, yeah. But I've got absolutely no interest in watching horror films and getting freaked out, you know?

I find, I find that really interesting, actually, because coming on board with *The Magnus Archives* was a massive step change for me. Yeah. Because I don't know about all the awesome writers that you guys know about, and I'm sort of starting to learn about it because I'm interested, you know, and I'm interested in Jonny's motivations and Alex and Lyd's motivations and all the other guys on the cast as well. And for me, I used to deal with comedy. You know, my Youtube channel was a comedy channel, and coming into *The Magnus Archives* are than editing it and you know playing a character in it was just the polar opposite of everything but I've never known I was used to because like you, Lydia, I don't -- there is some horror that I enjoy watching but I don't really enjoy being "scared," inverted commas, by, by media and what-have-you. You know, there's enough of that in the world already. So I'm very much of the opinion that I prefer things that aren't horror, so then playing the character in a horror podcast, for me, gives me that, that perspective of what would happen if someone came in and they didn't have the first idea about any of this law or you know but yeah. I mean, obviously I know about things like the eldritch horror, I mean, you've got stuff like that -- you know, I'm familiar with it. I've listened to a few of the audiobooks now, that was introduced to me by, by a friend of mine and his brother. And that was my entry into a lot of the things that you, I think, you guys have been thinking about for a while. And some of the the sort of stuff that's sitting in the background, and I'm actually learning about this stuff as I'm going through, playing the character, listening to the stories, listening back to everyone's work. And, yeah,

That's, yeah, where I pitch in. See, how many people -- weird one when it comes to horror. So, shocker, teenage boy likes horror. Stop the presses. Yeah, how weird I was. I know! This has never happened before, ever! So, I was -- shocker -- I was a little bit of an obsessive kid in certain ways, and one of them is if you introduced me to an author, I'll read every single thing they ever read, and then I'll move on to the next door -- I mean, every single thing they ever read, and move on, and so on. Yeah. But for me, with horror, I'm a little bit "broken," in that I've genuinely never found any piece of horror media that's -- really, or very rarely, at least, found anything that actually has an effect on me. I don't get that kind of emotional response. It just doesn't really work for me. Yeah, but I've engaged with horror or lots both like writing, myself, or in making. Like, it's been a while, like, film and so on, but I'd say my main "in" has been sort of cinema and so on. But for a lot of it comes down to: horror is an excellent technical example for working in fiction.

Oh, yeah. There's a reason that, if you are starting a new production company or you're trying to break into film -- yeah, almost everyone makes horror. Yeah. And there's a reason for it, and it's that it has a lot of very, very clearly codified tropes, trends and techniques. Yeah. You know, if you want to do horror -- oh, is your character is your character feeling psychologically unbalanced? Chucking a Dutch angle in there! Rotate the camera by about, you know, 25 degrees! And then maybe do a tilt shift to mess around with, like, some distances! And so on. But I think horror is one of the genres, more than any other, where it allows technique to shine.

Absolutely. Because if you are bad it does not matter how good your monster is, or how good your conceit is, your thing will be garbage. Yeah, exactly. It's peculiar, in that everyone always goes to horror because they know horror best, but it's also in a lot of ways the least forgiving. I think comedy and horror, actually, have quite a lot in common. Yeah. They're all about -- you, you have to be playing with the audience's energy, you have to be exactly aware of where they are on any kind of park. Yeah, yeah. Break the tension at exactly the right point. So I think the father -- most of us of the wider team knew each other through comedy, and we're trained in comedy, like, comedy is the hard -- I think -- is the hardest thing to do well. Yeah. I -- And to do really well, and that means that you're you, and you, I think, in many ways you have to lose your ego to be good at it. Because you have to be willing to mess up in the most embarrassing ways. Like --

Yeah, yeah. First hundred five minutes of an open mic night are going to be *horrendous.* Yep. And that allows you to then play with energy and timing. We've got a draw to a close, I think. We've had a lot of discussion. I know we'd like to go into stuff in some more detail, but, you know, ti -- time is a thing that we have to factor. So what I would ask, then, is: what if you had to recommend one piece of horror for listeners? Not necessarily like, "You loved *The Magnus Archives* so you will like this." But something more like, "If you want to know horror, you should try this."

I think already this podcast but reading that early *Vertigo* stuff, that British psychological horror twist, and there's only you -- you probably only need to get through a bunch of, like, you know, maybe 100 rather short comics. It can be read in a relatively short period of time, and you begin to see this -- you see this whole world change, and I think it's a really interesting direction shift that changed a lot of horror that came after it. But I'm not an expert, so it could well be that other people be like, "No, this other writer came well before," but reading through the early Swamp Thing and then how that exploded into Sandman and help laser and a lot of other, like, related characters was super valuable to me. I thought you might.

So from the way that I've engaged with horror, I guess they're, like Lydia said, there are lots of different styles and there are lots of different elements, but if you want a pure -- in my opinion -- kind of perspective on different kinds of horror that exist within one place or one universe or one thing, *Alien: Isolation* is a fantastic way to get into it. Because having -- having a thing about other gaming titles -- there are a lot of gaming titles, like *Dead Space* and things like that, which give you weaponry to be able to deal with whatever threat is coming after. You know? Which is its horror. But it's a once-removed kind of -- it -- because you know that the threat is always at arm's reach if you need it to be, unless that's taken away from you. And in *Alien: Isolation,* it is: there is a constant threat, and it will never go away, and it follows you throughout the entire game. I'm generally too terrified by the very concept to think about picking examination of detention yeah well not just tension though, I'd say it's more than that. Building on your point, is that it's tension, but it's also the subjugation of an individual within a tense environment? And there are points where you have weaponry but you still can't do anything to get rid of the main threat, so, you know -- and then there are other elements as well, like, you know, stealth bits, and, you know, there's things in the -- it's a really good example of taking those, those important bits that we think in, like, Western horror especially, in horror sci-fi, obviously yeah obviously because it has to turn them into mechanics. Yeah. Highlights them in a really interesting way. Yeah, so it does -- like, if you go into it with a critical eye, like trying to, like, engage yourself and learn, you can learn a lot just by playing that game. By going, "Oh, I see what you're doing with the music." Yeah, yeah. "Look at how you've set this space out to focus on -- I see." Yeah. It's a good demonstration, if you choose to interpret it that way, and you know what? As well for those of you who aren't, aren't gamers and are listening to this, if you want a get in I would recommend the film version of *2001: Space Odyssey.*

Yeah, definitely. Because, well -- it has, it has a total removal of power, that then becomes horrifying. But if you haven't seen it I won't spoil. Oh, yeah. It's been, it's been not that long since it was originally released, so, yeah, I agree with you. Me, I worked really hard to make sure I read that in the year 2000. Basically a child when

So my recommendation is gonna be a bit generic, but it comes with an addendum which is: I recommend reading a random selection of Lovecraft, but with a *very, very* key consideration, which is -- Lovecraft a lot for cosmic horror and so on but the guy was really problematic. Another -- really really problematic for his time, as well! Yeah, boy. His time is he was a ticket for his tie is easy to read his stuff and go, "Well, you know, it's the past, I think --" No no no. Like *even at the time* he was an extremely problematic author. But what I would say is, if you choose to engage with it critically -- and again this is me, the soulless robot man who's always concerned with the "how" -- if you actually really dig into it and you want to wrap your head around horror, it's a good way for you to read it and go, "I see what should have been different there," or "I see how this could be problematic." And there's a very important aspect with horror that people forget, especially on the creation side, which is: when you make something, you are telling people something. You are not just telling a story. You are telling someone. Everything, *everything* that you make has a message.

Yeah.

And sometimes that message can either be not what you thought, or can be the opposite. Yeah. If you don't want to tell a story about a strong female character in bunny ears, except at the end of it, all the audience thinks is, "Wow, that was a really flat one-dimensional character," congratulations! Your message is almost certainly not what you hoped. to know And Lovecraft is a really great one to dig into. Especially the Innsmouth fish-people one, as one of the examples where it's like, "Interesting. I get -- I get the horror, and I get why it's scary, and this bit side to take but it's a really good example of something that you can read and you can't just go, "Oh yes, that was brilliant. Job done." You have to engage with it, and you have to go, Okay, if you were wanting to make something as 'horror' as this, yeah, it's -- do you leave behind what bits are not appropriate, what bits do not fit our modern world or even let's be frank the world that is but it's just -- it's very easy to read passively, and it's very easy to watch something and go, "That was scary, therefore it was good."

for her I'm inclined to agree, having very recently been introduced to the actual -- the written version and the audio version of -- I think it was, what's it... *The Dunwich Horror.* Yes, *The Dunwich Horror.* Yeah, *The Dunwich Horror,* I've recently heard the audio version of that, and having listened to it for the first time, I totally agree. Yeah, totally. You can literally see the points where you can go, "Ah, right, yeah." So I think we will wrap up there. Yes. We're gonna have to put a reading list on these, we will we will put together a reading list so that it's things that we think that you should probably give a goat. Apart from that, I think that we're done here. I think we've covered the systems. Thanks for coming, and thanks so much for listening, and thanks for bearing with us over the season break! Next week we should be returning to our previously scheduled programming. Exciting. Science. I mean, I'm very much -- then I just decide to hold off the cliffhanger for another six months. Just really is, yeah. But, yeah, major angle off of there so thanks for me and thanks my for one else.

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