---
layout:          post
title:           "MAG160.02 - Season 4 Q+A Part 2"
date:            2019-12-12 12:00:00 -0400
episode_type:      special
tags:            []
categories:			"tma"
podcasts: ["tma"]
title_prefix:	"MAG"
prev_categories: ["tma"]
prev_prefixes: ["MAG"]
next_categories: ["crossover"]
next_prefixes: ["XXX"]
prev_episode:		['1601-season4q-apart1']
next_episode:		['16004-inspace']
prev_episode_num:		['QA4.1']
next_episode_num:		['160.04']
prev_episode_title:		["Season 4 Q+A Part 1"]
next_episode_title:		["The Magnus Archives... in Spaaaace"]
episode_title:   'Season 4 Q+A Part 2'
episode_number:  'QA4.2'
summary:         "It's time for Alex and Jonny to answer more of your questions in the second part of our Magnus Q&A!"
content_flags:   []
acast_url:       https://play.acast.com/s/themagnusarchives/mag160.2-season4q-apart2
formats: 
  PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VYyAH6eJaSTbRcG09EvGoUfLPSQlSPKR/
  Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S9HRlzdm4rAMiicmieaz_Lr4Ei5GZ-XOwew4XaifNnA/edit
official:        false
unofficial:      https://twitter.com/daytime_ghosts
unofficial_name: daytime_ghosts
wiki_url:        
has_footnotes:   true
---

#### JONNY

Hello again!

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

Welcome to The Magnus Archives Season 4 Q&A session two!

#### JONNY

Part two!

#### ALEX

Part two, because we- we have a lot of questions!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

2 Questions 2 Furious!

#### ALEX

Yep, um, from our perspective we stopped-

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Step Up 2, for questions!

#### ALEX

We have stopped for five minutes before immediately pressing on with a new round of questions. Um, so with that in mind then I'm going-

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Q&A 2: Question Boogaloo.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

Q&A 2: The Quickening.

#### ALEX

I'm going to jump into the first question.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*soft*) Q&A 2: Q&A Harder.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

(*soft*) This one is at an airport, but it's basically the same thing.

#### ALEX

[__*mirry*__] asks: Was Ben aware before the last few episodes of season four that Elias was possessed by Jonah Magnus? If not, when did you guys tell him and what was his reaction?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Oh, when did he find out? 'Cause it...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Ben knew* well* in and- like more than a season!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Well... Yeah!

#### JONNY

It's really weird because what different voice actors do and don't know is often kind of determined by them.

#### ALEX

It is non-standardized.

#### JONNY

Um, because generally we'll- we'll lay out of all of their story, uh, to them pretty much from the off, but also we're really bad at not just massively talking spoilers when we're in the production space so some voice actors will face, specifically, is very keen to not be spoiled, um-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Which does not gel with how I direct at all! Which is quite funny.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Which is- which is lovely. Um, cause they are very into actually listening along. Lyd used to really not like spoilers-

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

She gave up the curse at some point.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Then- but then they gave up the struggle at- at- at some point and just like "Yeah, OK, just tell me what happens."

#### ALEX

So- so some people argue that you give a better portrayal if you don't know what's going to be coming next.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mm. Sure.

#### ALEX

I argue the opposite and I think it leads to better script reading if you do know the destination cause you can focus on like the foreshadowing and making the bits that matter land more and so on. 

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

It- it's up for debate, it is like- there are different schools of directing, but generally speaking I err on the side of telling people pretty much their arc.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

As far as it is reasonable. So I wouldn't like- like in episode one...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

So...

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Tell someone how they're going to end in season five. But-

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Yeah we... told Ben right from the off that Elias was one of the big bads.

#### ALEX

Yep.

#### JONNY

Uh, we didn't go into a lot of detail with him at the time, uh, both because Jonah Magnus is a thing hadn't been fully fleshed out for us.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

And also because he hasn't been mentioned in the series at that point. So, there wouldn't have been any context for Ben to understand anyway.

#### ALEX

And it wouldn't have been relevant to his characterization.

#### JONNY

I think we... laid everything about Elias to him early season three? Shortly before the- shortly before the big villainous turn.

#### ALEX

Yeah. Ben knew he was the big bad straight out of the gate and he didn't know the n-

#### JONNY

He knew- no, he knew he was *a* big bad.

#### ALEX

So, he knew he was *a* big bad. He didn't think he was an arbitrary bad.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Um, and then, yeah... end of season two, beginning of season three, we're like here's the nature of your badness, but I don't have a specific date or anything.

#### JONNY

No, and generally Ben has been one of the ones who I've always enjoyed his reactions to discovering the twists, quite a lot. With different voice actors some of them are like (*plainly*) "Oh, cool," uh, some of them are like (*intrigued*) "Ooo! OK!" Ben is very much, a sort of, like, an appreciative like, (*excited*) "Oh, ho, ho, oo!" 

#### ALEX

Ah, but only- so- Ben- Ben is very expressive and I feel safe in saying, with Ben, what makes me laugh is, Ben doesn't hide if he doesn't approve of a story move, as well.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

So, if you give him a story move and he doesn't think it makes sense it'll immediately be a (*unsure, Ben-like*) "Hm. Right. OK...? Hm? What?" Until he gets-

#### JONNY

I wouldn't know!

#### ALEX

Until he gets the remaining character things that are relevant. It has happened for Magnus once where he's like- I can't remember what it was, but it was something like "Why is he killing Leitner?"

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

I did it![^1]

[^1]: Unsure what Jonny said here.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

He's like "Cool thing, I don't understand why this is happening?"

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh! Yeah. No, cause we gave him the script before we'd laid out his-

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Yeah, he basically ended up going, "It's a cool story move, I don't understand why this is happening," He doesn't do the "(*brightly*) Oo!" he goes a (*plainly*) "Cool, there's a- there's a problem that needs solving."

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

But the second he's given the context it goes, "OK, cool! Great." But yeah- he's a very expressive man.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah. In fact that sounds like that might've been the time where we laid everything out.

#### ALEX

I feel like that actually have been it.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. Yeah.

#### ALEX

So, that's even earlier than we think. 

OK, in that case then, I am going to carry on a little bit, a similar one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yup. Sure.

#### ALEX

From [__*cmp*__]: How much of the back story did the cast know in advance?

#### JONNY

Uh, yeah, we kind of covered this a little bit in the last question, the answer it's very much up to them. Uh, most of them I think know... a random smattering of significant upcoming twists.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

And-

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Though not from season five.

#### ALEX

That- that's what I was going to say, we're now in a really weird situation where for most people...

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Us saying this is what going to happen has generally resulted in "And then the world ends."

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

So, we're actually in a weird situation where performers are-

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, very few of them are like *what happens after the world ends?*

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Yeah, so now we're in a situation where, I'd actually say, performers know the *least* about their arcs.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Than they have for years because everyone was always satisfied with "And then the world ends."

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

I think Ben was the only one who of course goes: (*Ben-like*) "But then what?" y'know?

#### JONNY

Yeah, Ben knows a little bit of what's a- what's coming.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

He does. He does.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Um, but yeah, it's always weird having people, also people within the wider Rusty Quill family, who sort of come into Magnus, cause they'll've osmosed stuff.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Uh, from a production point of view like when we brought Helen as the therapist which... Aw, incidentally, that's... [*displeased grunt*] I- I'm *really* sad about Helen as the therapist. Uh, just because everyone decided that she sounded really spooky and thus was really plot relevant! And I was like, "Oh, no, we just- [*soft/sad grunt*] (*disappointment*) *we forgot to cast someone because it was such a small bit!*"

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

You- It wasn't that we forgot!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

It- it wasn't that we forgot.

#### ALEX

We ran out! We ran out of people to cast! Like everyone who was on our casting books was either unavailable, out of the country or already cast in other roles by that point!

#### JONNY

And then Helen was there, from, uh, gaming recording, and we kind of penciled her in for some stuff in season five.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But we're like it's- it's fine, it's a very small role. Uh, it's just like three lines, no one's gonna really- like we can reuse you in season five. But now everyone decided that the therapist was massively significant and massively... uh, important.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

It's because we introduced the seeking character in season four!

#### JONNY

It was just meant to be a playful swipe at The Black Tape and Tanis and The Bright Sessions all the ones where it's like, *OK, so, now we're going to get a lot of story through these tape recordings of a therapy session.* I thought it would be really funny to have, uh, "Oh, can I record these therapy sessions for exposition?" "No you can't. Stop."

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

No exposition.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

No exposition. I thought that would be a really funny little joke. 

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Just a playful little-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Didn't come out how it hoped, did it?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Nope!

#### JONNY

Everyone had been hanging theories on it and I'm like (*disappointed*) "Aw, that's... that's not ideal."

#### ALEX

Is it too late to make the therapist Jonah's therapist?

##### [Alex snort-laughs]

#### ALEX

OK, um. How did you go about scripting and editing the sounds of the apocalypse in the season finale?

#### JONNY

W- well from a scripting side I think- oh, what was it- something along the lines of, uh- *the world goes horribly wrong, everything is bad forever.*

#### ALEX

I *think* that's the stage direction that was as close as it gets.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

In terms of audio.... I am going to reveal something I didn't think I was going to reveal but I'm feeling- I'm feeling honest today.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Feeling fruity.

#### ALEX

I don't like... my soundscape for that episode at the end.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*sad*) Aw.

#### ALEX

I feel like I did it justice properly if I had another stab at it, I'd think I could do a better job, however that is in a way where I know, in my heart of hearts, that the only person that would tell the difference between the one I would make and that one is me!

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

In terms of how it was made, bizarrely, I actually used loads of leftovers from The Lonely.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*intrigued*) Really?

#### ALEX

I did loads of soundscape experimentations with The Lonely and I did it with a few completely inappropriate with The Lonely. But quite useful, however the soundscape for the apocalypse is actually a bit too dense. There're more layers than the human ears *really* gonna be able to pick up on.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Sure.

#### ALEX

Um, so there are things like, um, pitch shifted in slowed down screams.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Like if a too tall cape.

#### ALEX

There are some winds from an actual desert in there...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Like a too tall cape.

#### ALEX

There are.... a- oh! There is a really peculiar distortion that I managed to stumble on where basically it is the sound of a magnetic tape breaking?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Like a weird cape!

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

But yeah again, it's a bit, it sounds strange, but I'd probably strip a bit out.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mm!

#### ALEX

And make it a bit clearer what's going on, if I had my way.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Um, too much detail on that one I think.

#### JONNY

(*plainly*) Disagree!

#### ALEX

Story questions!

#### JONNY

Alright! Let's hit it!

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*bells*__], good question, I like this one: Will we get any more information about the original Elias Bouchard?

#### JONNY

Ehh, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Like his major contribution to the story is having his eyes nicked.

#### ALEX

It is true.

#### JONNY

Um, but that doesn't mean- that, uh, we won't find a bit more about him.

#### ALEX

I think more context about him was going to come out at some point. I don't think it is something upon which the entire story will pivot and become...

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

No, it's not- it's not-

#### ALEX [CONT.]

An Elias-centric masterpiece.

#### JONNY

Yeah, the... the pre-Jonah-Elias is not super plot-significant, but that doesn't mean he won't, uh... get a little bit more exploration, if we have time!

#### ALEX

(*softly*) I'd like to think as well honestly he's not that interesting a guy!

#### JONNY

No he's a-

#### ALEX

(*softly*) that's kind of the point of him!

#### JONNY

Like he's a, in my- in my mind he kind of a lightly posh dickhead.

##### [Alex laughs]

Who- who just kind of coasted through uni, uh, and landed a- landed just a weird little academic job, uh, and crucitally didn't have a lot of connections who would miss him if something would happen to his eye color!

##### [Alex cracks a small laugh]

#### JONNY

Or shape. Or presence.

##### [Alex laughs more]

#### ALEX

Right on to a writing question specifically.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yep! Grand!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

This one is from [__*dez*__]: I find that writing and working on intensive dark material can often be mentally/emotionally taxing, how do you, especially on takes, sessions, or scenes take care of yourself?

#### JONNY

Whoa. Um, this is actually something I'm not great at.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Mm.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

I find that the emotional aspect doesn't get to me as much because I tend not to write things that I personally find too... emotionally draining. Uh, sometimes it will end up in that territory, especially with, like, The Lonely.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But for the most part I write the sort of horror, that though it might give me that sort of "Whoo-ah" scare, uh, as I'm writing it, it's not going to... the emotion I'm getting from it is a sort of... kind of slightly sadistic glee? I guess?

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Mm.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

So, I don't find the writing of that super draining. What I'm bad at is I'm very much a- a deadline cruncher. Which is something I've been gradually getting better at over the course of Magnus. Certainly early on, my challenge was not shotgunning the writing of two episodes like the day before, uh, a recording and absolutely destroying my sleep pattern. Within the recordings itself a lot of it is drink a lot of water, take regular breaks, don't scream so much that all the oxygen leaves the room and you all start to feel dizzy.

#### ALEX

Yeah, that's a thing. You get used to that. Y-you will climatize. You really do.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Um, from my perspective, I'm quite lucky in that I've said before, sometimes I'm a bit weird when it comes to the writing side. No matter what I've written or no matter what I've worked on, it just doesn't occupy the same part of me as actual real-world emotion? For me, scripts even from when I'm writing the most emotional thing ever, I still almost a puzzle to be solved.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Erm, so, it doesn't have that effect on me. I would say in terms of... other casts, this season has definitely been the one that has prompted the most emotional responses from performers?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Again, ninety percent due to The Lonely, if I'm honest. And there has been ones where... part of being a director is reading the room and part of that is being like "Cool," I don't know, "We are behind schedule for an hour! We still now need to take a fifteen minute break," [*Jonny agrees with a "Yeah."*] because if we don't you're gonna break someone, or you're gonna end up just completely ruining a recording day because no one is in a state to record and things like that.

#### JONNY

Also there's, uh, if, somebody, sort of, comes into the recording in a bad way because of stuff *outside* the show...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, that happens.

#### JONNY

You've got to make sure to... just give them the space they need and fundamentally work around it because their well-being is always going be one hundred percent more important than what- whatever your... own artistic vision might be.

#### ALEX

The self-care thing is really important, it's extremely important on the artistic side because we have been exposed to a lot of false-narratives, that sacrifice of self is a necessity for artistic endeavour.

##### [Jonny makes a sound, like he agrees]

And I don't believe that is the case, I think that, yeah, ultimately you have to put time into the thing you make but there has- it has mutated over the years into the ideas that you have to- yeah, you have to punish yourself in order to make something of worth and it's not true.

#### JONNY

Also, I think the- the overwhelming narrative that's- is built up that your productivity is your value?

##### [Alex groans in disgust/disappointment]

Is something that- well, we both struggle with, I think. And the worst thing is that it doesn't actually make you more productive.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Believable. 

(*firmly*) It doesn't! It makes mistakes!

#### JONNY

It just feels worse when you're not doing stuff!

#### ALEX

Really, really, really high in a way that they don't need to be.

#### JONNY

Yeah, it just means if you're not doing work you feel really bad, it doesn't actually mean you're doing more work. And it's something that, I think, we both still struggle with, but it's a very important thing to learn. It's not actually-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Creativity is not a stick you hit yourself. Like it's that simple. And productivity has become a new way of disguising the old idea.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah. 

Yeah, yeah

Yeah.

#### JONNY

It's the whole thing of like "Ugh, on my seventh cup of coffee and I haven't slept cause I've been writ-" It's like, that's-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Don't- don't glorify that.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

That's- that's bad. Don't- don't do that, it's not a good thing.

#### ALEX

Um, yeah, people- people are right.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Which is something I'm- yeah, we're- we're still...we're still learning.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I'm actively struggling but I will *never* *eve*r do the thing of like... Yeah, it's when people brag about "Oh, I'm getting by on like four hours of sleep," and it's like "What are you doing!? Stop! That's a- that's a-"

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*soft*)* Whaaaat? Stop. Sleep is good!*

#### ALEX

(*loud, frustrated*) If nothing else, it's inefficient! 

##### [Both laughs]

#### ALEX

(*frustrated*) That's the real evil! It's inefficient, OK!?

#### JONNY

(*audibly smiling*) Oh, hey, here we go, here we go! Here we go.

#### ALEX

(*frustrated*) You gotta- you gotta maintain the engine! That's really- that's the real evil here is the inefficiency of it! It's a system.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

(*calm*) I would say, it is about your own well-being and... (*amused*) Wh-what's this we're finally dropping caricatures and laying bare. Alex's- Alex's core it's efficiency! 

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

(*ugh*) That was- that was the truth! OK! It genuinely really bugs me! It bugs me because you're making life harder for yourself in the long run. Trading off for your long term for your short term doesn't work! It goes wrong! (*laughingly*) You end up running a podcast company!

(*normal*) OK, that one- that one was a joke! 

##### [Alex laughs]

Um, I should- I should bring this up.

#### JONNY

Mostly.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I'm going to bring this back. Resembling an actual episode here, OK.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Let's wrangle, just drag it back onto uh... yeah.

#### ALEX

I'm going- I'm going to loop back around then here to cast.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Sure, sure, sure.

#### ALEX

Oo! Intestering, OK. Uh, this one is from [__*orchid*__]: Alex, what was it like to voice Martin while he was in The Forsaken?

#### JONNY

(*intrigued*) Oo!

#### ALEX

Staying with the- the high truth, which I'm trying to do with this Q&A, actually really annoying. Because, it just so happens that at the time we were in a real quagmire of production issues. It was when the stuff was going wrong with Alasdair's, um, audio and the technical stuff and blah, blah, blah. It's really, really difficult when a day of production is going down the toilet, to then go, (*solem*) *and now I'm sad and kinda distant* because what you wanted to do is [*some weird screaming, like screeching*]

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Truthfully away... 

#### ALEX

So...

#### JONNY

(*calm*) So problematically calm.

#### ALEX

Yeah, I would love- I would love to give a real deep like exposed core of my being of about what it's like.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

Honestly, like ninety percent of it was just trying to take our bad days, put it in a box, putting it on the shelf and getting the audio. It took more takes than it should have.

#### JONNY

Oh god, I'm sorry. I'm just remembering- the- the- when were recording the- the cabin scenes and you just had hurt your foot? So-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Oh! I had just ripped- so, I really, really had a lot of foot pain due to minor surgery and stuff.

#### JONNY

And it was giving you this weird manic energy and I was like...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Real weird.

#### JONNY

No, it's, it's domestic, it's chill, it's relaxed, it's a respite before all the- the horror and Alex was like (*quick, manic-like*) *yeah, yeah, yeah of course if I let you know if I see any good cows.*

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

(*grr, loud*) I LOVE GOOD COWS. GOOD COWS. YEAH. 

##### [Jonny laughing]

(*normal*) It was not good, we had to do a complete retake. Was not good.

##### [Jonny takes a sigh]

Um. Here's something useful, in terms of point of reference in order to play Martin in that situation due to varying situations. I have spent chunks of time around people who are on things like heavy neural inhibitors, things like that.

##### [Jonny makes an agreeing sound]

Often it's pain medications and things like that. Uh, of all the things I've- I've weirdly used that as a bit of touch stone, but in terms, again, whether it emotionally upset me or anything I'm really sorry. I was mostly angry when I was recording those lines.

##### [Jonny chuckles]

That might not be as- as glamorous and- and [something here] as people might...

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

To be fair, like my- my- my heart rending the shouts for Martin were mainly just us doing it again, again to get the exact levels right so that they weren't clipping but were also clearly shouted.

#### ALEX

And Jonny was being *really *good with me cause I was- I was- (*laughingly*) I was getting real antsy. I was getting *real* antsy that day!

OK, we're going to abandon that for a little bit so I can just forget the memories.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Sure. Sure.

#### ALEX

Just forget that feeling and not get that manic energy back. We're gonna go on to talking a bit more about story again.

#### JONNY

Yep.

#### ALEX

Specifically from [__*constantivaldo*__].

#### JONNY

Mhm.

#### ALEX

Given the actions Eric and Melanie took to leave The Archives, what extreme actions would one need to take to sever their connection to other entities?

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

(*intrigued*) Oh. What a good question!

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

So, you're talking like how would you- how would you throw a road block against The Desolation? Or how would do the same against The End, things like that. I don't feel like there is an option for The End unless you- uh, make a-

#### JONNY

No... I mean...

#### ALEX

All actions with that would get you further in, because it's sharing an obsession with The End is kind of is *into*.

##### [Jonny sighs]

#### JONNY

Yeah. Like The End- like The End is sort of- The End is a really interesting one because- because it works very strongly in both directions. I mean, the- like the- the thing to do with The End is essentially what Georgie ends up accidentally doing which is just, no longer... fearing it.

#### ALEX

Just check out.

#### JONNY

Just like, and in Georgie's case it wasn't something that she... or rather, I feel after a certain point she did choose it, but-

#### ALEX

It's a bit mucky.

#### JONNY

It's a- it's a- it's a sort of a grey area.

#### ALEX

In terms of other ones though?

#### JONNY

Um, yeah, that's a real good question. Because it's- it's not about the physical action, it's about the... categorical and very concrete rejection.

#### ALEX

Also, via dream logic as well. Hm.

#### JONNY

Yeah, via- via sort of fairytale dream logic. Um. Oh.

#### ALEX

I don't think this is one we're going to be able to answer on this, for the simple reason that it's actually gonna require quite a lot of thought.

#### JONNY

Yeah. I mean, it's like, I'll- I'll be honest it took quite a while to- to- to nail down for the- for The Beholding.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. True.

#### JONNY

Cause like while it- while it's technically a very simple act, a very simple answer, it took a- quite a journey to actually arrive as that as the- there- there was sort of various drafts and it was only when we like came up with that like: "Yes. That's- that's the one."

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

That'll work. Yeah.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I'm trying to think, I don't even have another, a one for something that's leaking out?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Something- something like The Desolation if you were to legitimately sacrifice your life for someone you loved?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I suppose, but at the same time does it count being severed from an entity if you're annanilated in the attempt?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

But again- oh, well, well, well if- it would be if you survived. You could sever. Like-

#### ALEX

Oh sure! Oh! OK! 

#### JONNY

Like I don't think-

#### ALEX

A- a- a pure altruism sacrifice-style.

#### JONNY

Yeah, like- like it would need to be- like I think for The Desolation, like a pure act of altruistic love? But at the same time, that's not quite as- that's not quite as concrete as like...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. Yeah.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

You need to- you to blind yourself. You need to destroy your eyes.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Because what we need to do is to take that as an idea and then find a symbolic, physical action to manifest that emotional... swap?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. Mm.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

And I don't know what that would be. I'd have to- like I said, it's a really good question where I have to get a lot of thought.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Oh The Stranger, uh, The Stranger you gotta run through, um, the town center nude.

##### [Alex bursts into laughter]

Just bare it all. No disguises.

#### ALEX

And if anyone, y'know, draws attention you have to engage them in a conversation. You don't just- you don't just fly by!

#### JONNY

Yeah, no, no, absolutely, no- you- you walk through and engage people you're very, very honest by what you're doing.

#### ALEX

Absolutely. There you go, that'll work.

##### [Both laughs]

#### ALEX

(*laughingly*) that took a weird turn at the end.

#### JONNY

(*plainly*) Oh, the flesh you go veggie.

#### ALEX

That's not n-

##### [Jonny laughing]

#### ALEX

I knew you'd say that.

##### [Jonny laughing maniacally]

#### ALEX

It's not correct. You know what-

#### JONNY

It's not, I know, I know.

#### ALEX

In fact, that's- that's gonna jump me back to- this is going to jump me back to a, um, question on cast, cause you brought me to it. Right.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure.

Sure.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*hannah*__] Is Jonny a vegetarian? Honestly after all the meat content I might just become one myself.

#### JONNY

No. My relationship with meat is, as you might have guessed, complicated?

##### [Alex makes a hmph-sound]

Basically I- I'm not a vegetarian. I wasn't a vegetarian. At the beginning it was much more a fear about body horror and gore.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Then, in episode 30, I did a bunch of research into abattoirs and was like (*dramatic*) *oh no, the industrialized meat industry is real bad.* 

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

And it's been something of a, y'know, low key struggle since, because I- I really- I really liked meat. And, but at this point I don't eat a lot of it. Especially because a lot of other people in my life are vegetarian or vegan. So, like, most of the meals that, uh, that I cook at home, um, or the- that we eat at home are vegetarian, but I will still generally, y'know, might get a- get a steak if- if we're going out to eat or a burger or that sort of things. So, I feel that I am-

#### ALEX

You're definitely meat-*lite* as a person.

#### JONNY

Yeah, I- I- I consider- I try to be a conscientious meat eater? Even though that kind of a contradiction in terms?

#### ALEX

But you do have a... coherent sort of set of rules in terms of like what counts as people or not?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Oh, I- I... 

#### JONNY

Oh yeah , also, uh, I have occasionally seen people being like, "Ugh, this guy is got to be a vegetarian because he keeps saying there's no difference between human meat and, uh, animal meat." And I'm like (*plainly*) "Oh no, the- the other way around." In that I don't fit like- let's be clear! Probably wouldn't eat- I mean, I wouldn't just eat a person. OK.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I mean...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I wouldn't- I wouldn't eat a person!

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

There are contexts where I would?

#### JONNY

I mean, no, no- there- there are contexts- like this is- this is the point, like I feel that I mean obviously prion diseases aside, I wouldn't actually, because prion diseases are horrible.

#### ALEX

##### [makes a disgusted noise]

#### JONNY

Um, but I don't fundamentally see a difference between... eating other meats and eating human meat? Uh...

#### ALEX

Y- you need like a short pity- like three word phrase that encapsulates that.

#### JONNY

I mean, *don't kill people*.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY

Also don't- don't...

#### ALEX

I was going to say meat is meat. But no, no.

#### JONNY

But yeah, meat is meat is meat. But, like also, if someone was dying and was like "Hey, after I die cook me up and eat me." I probably would.

#### ALEX

So diving in then, just cause I know this specific thing about you. Corvids, people or not people?

#### JONNY

Oh, corvids are people.

#### ALEX

Octopus, people or not people?

#### JONNY

Oct-Uh, yeah, the- the- I- I have a list of, um... I have a list of animals in my head that I consider people, uh, let's see octopuses, corvids, uh, dolphins...

#### ALEX

Apes.

#### JONNY

Apes. If I believe an animal is capable of choosing to- oh, elephants! Elephants are a hundred percent people.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Elephants, yeah, yeah. Yup.

#### JONNY

If I believe that an animal is capable of choosing to do evil [*Alex bursts into laughter*] then it's a person.

#### ALEX

(*laughingly*) You never mentioned that to me before!!

#### JONNY

Well, but no, no before, there are elephants serial killers.

#### ALEX

True. True.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Uh, like corvids will pass down their vengeance list to their children.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Aw, but vengeance- aw but that, now you're getting into like the nature of evil.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And, but- but the thing, no, yeah, I know. This is why this is a very personal thing. 

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

OK.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Because I don't really have a solid like this-is-what-evil-is, but at the same time I can be like: *OK, so, these dolphins helped Dick Van Dyke when he floated out to sea. These dolphins murder baby seals for fun.* Those are clearly actions that are not being taken based on instinct because different dolphins are engaging with the exact same things in different ways. Some of which are... cruel and some of which are altruistic. It's a- it's a very weird, very personal thing but honestly I think if an animal is capable of doing something and I'm like: *y'know what that was a dick move. You could've not done that.* I think it's a person.

#### ALEX

I love that your criteria of what constitutes, like a person is: Are they capable of badness? 

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

Yeah. 

##### [Alex laughs more]

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

What a bleak vision of the world!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Are there- are there... oh no, oh no, OK, OK it's not are they capable of *badness* it's "Would I judge them for them bad?" 

##### [Alex makes a snort]

Like if a dog does something bad, I'm like, *aw that's a real shame, the owners messed up. That dog was following what it's been told, it's following it's instincts.*

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY

I don't blame the dog.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

But an octopus that climbs out its tank is not. The sneaking around! Stealing!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Oh- oh yeah, an octopus that *climbs-* that- an octopus that *every* night unscrews the lid to it's tank climbs out, oozes itself across the aquarium floor into other fish tanks, *eats* the fish, oozes back out, back into its own tank, and then screws the lid back on. That's a bad octopus.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

So what we're saying [__*hannah*__] is, thank you for a question that I knew would *immediately* open a can of worms in the best way possible. I love it!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Aw, god, I'm so problematic now.

##### [Both laughs]

#### JONNY

Jonny Sims, definite cannibal!

##### [Alex laughs even more]

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

We're g- we're gonna move on... we're gonna move on...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

I've never eaten a human!

#### ALEX

We're gonna move on- unconfirmed.

#### ALEX

OK. So, the- this is a production question from [__*fawny*__], uh: When you record as Martin and The Archivist how often are you recording in the same place versus recording separately and combining the dialogue in post?

#### JONNY

We're always together.

#### ALEX

There has been one time we haven't? And it is because a single line needed a pick up from me.

#### JONNY

OK. Let's- let's be clear. Uh, all my dialogue is recorded with Alex in the room. Sometimes there will be Martin lines that he's recorded in isolation to drop in. Uh, but all my lines are recorded in the presence of Alex.

#### ALEX

Follow-on question, from [__*playfullyevil*__]: Has Jonny actually been in the same room as Alasdair Stuart yet or have they never managed it?

#### JONNY

Once. We had a- to be fair, I've met Alasdair in other scenarios, uh, but, we were recording together for the final, the big, uh, confrontation between, uh, Peter and, uh, The Archivist.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*theater_ghost98*__].

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX

(*soft*) I wanna know about the other ninety-seven. 

Melanie had protection from being a part of the Archivist's nightmare zoos, for lack of a better term...

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Sure.

#### ALEX

Because she worked for the institute.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Right.

#### ALEX

Did she lose that after she quit or is she exempt because she can't see anymore?

#### JONNY

Oh, I don't think we actually, uh- we actually addressed this directly... 

#### ALEX

It hasn't been addressed in the series.

#### JONNY

Uh, I would probably say, like, if it's not in the text, it's not canon. My head canon would probably be that severing her connection with the eye probably means that she doesn't, uh, participate in the nightmare zoo?

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

I've been working under the same assumption.

#### JONNY

But also, it would only be for a short time anyway, because the rules, um...

#### ALEX

(*brightly*) Have changed!

#### JONNY

Have changed significantly!

#### ALEX

So, we'll do from [__*analert*__]: Is Jan Kilbride still *alive* in The Buried given John said that it didn't help that Gertrude killed him before chucking him in?

#### JONNY

(*squeaky*) Eh. Kinda.

#### ALEX

I think that's all we can really say, aren't it?

#### JONNY

Like, yeah. Chucking someone into one of the entities is probably a bad idea regardless whether or not they were alive or dead.

#### ALEX

Correct.

#### JONNY

I haven't really worked out the details of Jan Kilbride's situation and how much it is still a situation? But it's probably not great.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

From [__*demoncleric*__]: Were Agape and the monster pig animals that became avatars?

#### JONNY

(*intrigued*) Oh! What a good question! Huh. 

(*normal*) I mainly have been conceiving of them as, uh, monsters in the sense of direct expressions of the entities? But they-

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

(*calmly, plainly*) But pigs are people that can make choices, Jonny.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Uh, no, pigs are- I- I don't think pigs are *quite* people. They're-

##### [A makes an o-sound]

They're- they are- they're on the cusp. They are on the cusp.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Oh, OK.

#### JONNY

I personally don't quite... think they're people, but I respect those would disagree.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

OK. OK.

#### JONNY

Uh, but yeah, you could a hundred percent see them as- as avatars. Although, actually not in the case of Monster Pig because Monster Pig mur- it turned up from nowhere.

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

If there was a particularly horrid pig. That a- yeah the Monster Pig.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

But Monster Pig explicitly is an extra pig and it wasn't there.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Agape, maybe? Like, as I've said, I don't personally conceive of dogs as people enough to necessarily believe that any choice they would make would be... concrete enough to...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Constitute a... a pledge.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Constitute a- a pledge? Yeah. 

#### JONNY

But it's a really interesting thought and I am very confident that there are going to be a lot of fanfics out there that explore it far better than I would.

#### ALEX

Onto another writing one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Grand.

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*eliasis*__]: Jonny, can you talk about how The Magnus Archives comments on capitalism and getting tangled in systems of oppression?

#### JONNY

Not really, because it's all... it's all- it's all in- it's all in The Magnus Archives! Like, I'm broadly speaking, I think capitalism is a big [BEEP]. Um, and, systems of oppression are... real bad. But, it's all very complicated because it's... impossible to extricate yourself from the system? Uh, and if you do extricate yourself from the system how much is that actually helping to dismantle the system is difficult but also when you're within a system working to dismantle it is really difficult as well because the system is designed in order to take your efforts to dismantle it and channel them into reenforcing different aspects of it. Uh, and it's all a big wobbly complicated unpleasant mess! And y'know, you could theoretically say that's analogous to the fears... a bit.

##### [Jonny chuckles]

#### ALEX

There's an additional fact here as well, which is worth bearing in mind, which is, just because of the nature of, like, people who are engaged in the arts and so on, *as a group* we do tend to lean left. So, that will affect the things that we make, because of a direct result of that, but I wouldn't say that it is written entirely as a treatise and manifesto. 

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

No, but like, it's- it's very much... Yeah. It's... As I've said before it's very our examination of a- a lot of these thoughts and topics and yeah, capitalism is- is definitely one of the, uh, one the- the most cohesive, metaphorical frameworks. But I think there are quite a lot, uh, other metaphors that- that you can use it for. It's- it's about being caught in systems bigger than yourself which I think what cosmic horror speaks to, uh, very well.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Ah, yeah. Absolutely.

#### ALEX

I think it's- it's useful because it's a useful real-world large-scale system that people get swallowed by?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY

You can also look at it as analogous to finding yourself working under a totalitarian or fascist regime.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. True.

#### JONNY

Uh, like the idea of- like what- well you have to participate in an actively harmful system or you will, yourself will receive harm?

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY

What is- like what is the moral thing to do in that situation? Yeah. It's difficult questions and not- no easy didactic answers at least not- not from me.

#### ALEX

Well then, let's- let's jump onto one that you can have an easy answer to!

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX

From [__*nimbus*__]: It's been nagging me since I started producing fan work back in season one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mhm.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Does the institute have a dress code?

#### JONNY

Yes. It's on- like, maybe, page eight of the institute policies?

##### [Alex chuckles softly]

And people read it and then they look around and see that most people kind of disregard it?

#### ALEX

It's unnecessarily arcane in how it's written.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Like it doesn't give any examples? Um, but it-

#### ALEX

The word appropriate is used like fourteen times with no reference to how something can be appropriate.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Exactly. It's very much there so that if Elias needs to call someone up on something, he can just be like, "And your dress is unacceptable."

#### ALEX

Aw! You know what it is, it's The Magnus Archives equivalent of *loitering!*

#### JONNY

Hah!

#### ALEX

That's what it is!

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

It's loitering! It's a rule that comes into effect if I need to punish you for it!

#### JONNY

Also, no one in The Archives has ever been pulled up on it and it's a bit a sore point around the rest of the institute that The Archives- The Archives...

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

The disheveled *mess* of The Archives!

#### JONNY

Staff always looks just... absolutely horrendous!

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Horrendous!

#### JONNY

And no one ever says "boo!"

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY

Whereas like David, in research, he wore jeans that were slightly shorter.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Oof.

#### JONNY

Than a- than intended- than-

#### ALEX

That doesn't sound appropriate to me.

#### JONNY

It wasn't proper -- it wasn't appropriate. He wore them with sandals, is the thing.

#### ALEX

Well, that's why it was inappropriate.

#### JONNY

Eh, he wore them before with, like proper shoes and no one had said anything.

##### [Alex makes an acknowledging sound]

But weirdly when he put them with sandals it was the jeans? That Elias was talking about?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

It's no- sandals- sandals are a trip hazard! Sandals are a trip hazard.

#### JONNY

Well, but he didn't mention the sandals.

#### ALEX

Oh.

#### JONNY

He was talking about the jeans! 

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

It's *real* awkward.

#### JONNY

So... where's- where's the line?

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

OK, cool. From [__*lunarquill*__]: Had you always planned to release the final episode of season four on Halloween or was it just a lucky coincidence?

I can answer this one really easily.

Originally, we were hoping not to need to have a mid-season hiatus so Halloween wasn't on the cards, once the mid-season hiatus was on the cards we sat down and ran the numbers and went: "Well ending the world on Halloween! *That'd be just swell! That'd be just swell.*"

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*enthusiastic*) Oo! Actually! You know if we had *this* length!

#### ALEX

That'd just be- that'd just be swell. So it does mean as well, rather foolishly, the mid-season hiatus was a *little* bit shorter than it should've been?

#### JONNY

Also, a real danger because it was almost on Brexit Day!

##### [Alex makes a noise like realization]

And I'll be honest, I was absolutely terrified that our episode about ending the world would be forever associated with Brexit Day...

#### ALEX

But this does lead on to a pretty heavy question actually which a lot of people will want to know for various reasons.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mm.

#### ALEX

From, uh, [__*lunaticpoet*__]: For both of you, have you experienced creative burnout while working on this podcast? If so, how'd you normally recover from that sort of burn out?

#### JONNY

Yeah. Some of season two, some of season three. To a certain degree I had to push through the burn out which was... real bad news. Generally, it's not something that you can force a recovery from. You just gotta kind of be kind to yourself. Actively ensure that you have the down time. Don't beat yourself up for taking the- the time to- to recover and [*sighs*] just wait for it to- to get a bit better. I was- it was lucky that I don't think it overlapped with any of the massively significant episodes? So, it was very much, I- I withdrew from a lot of stuff that wasn't... Magnus or day job. Uh, aside from those two things I was mainly just kind of lock down in recovery mode?

#### ALEX

Creative burnout hasn't been too much of an issue for me for the simple reason that one of the sad truths about running the business-side of things is that frankly I don't get as much creative output as I would like. A lot of what I'm doing at the moment is working with other people's ideas? Um, which is an enjoyable thing in it of its own right, but I haven't done the sit down and write for like two days solid in, like, a long time. I haven't done it.

#### JONNY

To be fair, thinking about it, my burnout was less- was less creative and more writing in terms of... the actual process of writing. Like I can still conceive of episodes. 

#### ALEX

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY

It was-

#### ALEX

You've never just been dry.

#### JONNY

No.

#### ALEX

I've never known you to be.

#### JONNY

Uh, which is good but also like worrying cause it'll happen someday and I'm a little bit dreading when it happens. Um, but no, it was the burnout was much more what in the sense of: it was just a really, really physically uncomfortable and difficult thing to sit down and type out the words.

#### ALEX

Yeah. 

I'd love to give people advice on how to deal with burnout. I don't really have a solution, mine comes out in slightly weird ways. So what I have learned over the years, which is, uh, an unhelpful thing to learn, is that I delay when it happens.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

'Till like when it can be dealt with.

#### JONNY

Oh! You do the teacher thing! 

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY

You do the teacher thing...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Yep.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

Where you get through the term and then suddenly get massively ill for the entire holiday.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Every single- every single time and you can always tell by how I'm doing cause my weight fluctuates, I don't have a solution for this. But, what I would like people to take away, this is a Q&A so I'll explicitly state it is: there is a danger when you are in a position of even minor responsibility within an industry or within a system where you can end up setting a bar or setting a precedent...?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Magnus is- the release schedule it is, due to things that were beyond my control, at the outset and if there is one thing that I want people to take away it is not the belief that the only way to get this scale of growth is by basically sacrificing yourself to do it.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

It isn't that at all and I- and the last thing I want is people to use us as a bar where if you're not putting yourself through the grinder that you're not working...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, we're not- we're not- we're not doing this great. I mean the only thing I'm quite proud of how we did this is that we don't push the other people involved.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Nope. No.

#### JONNY

Like we're very conscientious of their well-being?

##### [both take a big sigh of relief]

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Well that one- that was heavy!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, that was- that was a big one.

#### ALEX

Let's- let's move on to a nice easy one.

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX

Story. Boom. [__*eyrelessjade*__]: Will we see a bit more of Melanie and Georgie during season five?

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX

No. They're gone forever.

#### JONNY

No- they'll- they'll be there.

#### ALEX

Uh, all characters that you know are now gone forever.

##### [Alex chuckles a bit, some silence from Jonny]

#### JONNY

Ah... Ge... Well, we haven't- we haven't fully- fully laid out season five. We'll talk, we'll talk through.

#### ALEX

They'll be- they'll be turning up, don't worry. Ya fine! Um. If nothing else we'd be running out of characters that people know if we- (*unintelligible sounds*) can't manage anymore. 

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

We're not going to jump to a story one.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mhm.

#### ALEX

Which has been asked by [__*lookalivesunshine*__] but I know has been kind of kicking around in the fandom a bit.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

OK.

#### ALEX

Are Daisy and Basira in a romantic relationship?

#### JONNY

Whoa. OK. This is going to be quite a long answer... So, I'd ask that people bear with me. There is never going to be an explicit textual clarification of that. Uh, for a very specific reason. So, with each relationship within the series there is a specific thing that I'm trying to explore. A specific dynamic that I feel is- is the core of the relationship in something that I am really interested in exploring. With Daisy and Basira what that has always been is the idea of partners within a, in this case, the police, but within a context of an us-and-them mentality. The idea of having your back against a world that is believed rightly or wrongly to be hostile to you.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yes.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

The sort of compromises that get made, uh, and the- the sort of excuses that you create for yourself to allow certain very harmful, uh, occasionally evil behaviors, because you have this mentality that it's us against the monsters that we have.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Well you end up in moral paradoxes...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

Exactly. We- we- we have to have each other's backs. And so it is this and especially how it manifests within the context of something like police work.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Now, adding an explicitly romantic aspect to that relationship? Would to, my mind, massively complicate and potentially...

#### ALEX

Subvert.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Subvert it. Making a sacrifice to excuse the... violent and, uh, harmful acts that someone has done because you are in love with them? Is a very different thing to making compromises to excuse the violence and harmful acts someone's done because you have their back within the police or a context of, uh, us-versus-them.

#### ALEX

Mmh.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

That's not to say explicitly th- they are not. I am, a hundred percent, not saying they are not romantically involved. And I'm- I'm not going to go into my own headcanon is. Uh, because that would have undue influence.

#### ALEX

It'd have massive ramifications that are going to detract from the point you're trying to make.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But, I will say that textally that's not a relationship that's ever going to be... codified one way or the other. Basira's entire arc is explicitly intended as an examination of how a siege mentality within somebody who conceives themselves as, to one degree to another, keeping the peace.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Or defending people can turn... toxic

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*janethebrain*__]: Jonny, have you ever worried you'll run out of statement ideas?

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX

Hasn't happened yet.

#### JONNY

No. Not yet. Um... I- I actively try and collect them from people around me. If anyone ever says anything particularly spooky or anything that locks into my brain as potentially to have a spooky aspect to it? I will stop the conversation and I will note it down.

#### ALEX

I am still wanting us to one on coffin syndrome and submarines.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yes! No, I know- I know. It's great, it's great.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I think it is an absolutely fascinating little thing.

#### JONNY

Well- I don't know if we'll be able to fit it in season five, cause-

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I genuinely don't know if we will.

#### JONNY

But we'll see. We'll see.

#### ALEX

OK. I'm *well* aware of time as it's ticking by and, uh, we're giving some heavy answers and even some.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

(*grimly*) Aren't we all...

#### ALEX

I am gonna make sure we-

#### JONNY [CONT.]

(*grimly*) Hurtling towards the grave.

#### ALEX

I'm gonna make sure we're trying to get through a few more people that are, uh, wanting to get answers and I should probably do in the public.

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX

So, uh, [__*halethewanderer*__] asks.

#### JONNY

Mhm!

#### ALEX

You've mentioned that previously that in order to assume their full powers as an avatar, a death seems to be required. Does it make a difference that the death used to the fuel The Archivist's transformation? Was that of another avatar?

#### JONNY

I don't feel that a death is necessarily required to become an avatar? What is required to become an avatar is always active choice.

#### ALEX

Yes.

#### JONNY

You need to make an active decision to finally cross that threshold.

#### ALEX

(*whispers*) Because drama.

#### JONNY

And death is a very good motivator for that sort of decision. You know, that prospect of death is *very scary* and it's such a... powerful categorical thing that... in the many cases, it is going to be the catalyst.

#### ALEX

But what I might say is I'm going to ask the next question.

#### JONNY

OK.

#### ALEX

Cause I think they bleed together. 

#### JONNY

Sure.

#### ALEX

From [__*kara roth*__] Why does the corruption revolve so heavily around love and looking for love?

##### [Jonny makes an intrigued sound]

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING, CONT.]

Because I would use corruption as one of the examples as one they tend to not to die. Or necessarily involve a death.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Where they tend to *not* die. That's true.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

Because that is a devotion is the whole, eros, thanatos, love, and death thing.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Ah, Freud.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But what that comes back-

#### JONNY

What a cocattle.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX [CONT.]

But what that comes back 'round to though is that I would argue that The Corruption more than most of them has probably less active death in it.

#### JONNY [background]

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

And it's more obsession and love and things...

#### JONNY

Yeah, The Corruption, it does engage a lot with the idea of love and toxicity within that?

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

And the- the thing you do- not- not just for romantic love but for a sense of belonging.

#### ALEX

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

It thinks thematically in my mind to the idea of the hive, to the idea of colonies of mold, almost. That- this-

#### ALEX

A lot of insinuations.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Yeah, the idea of like the-many-is-one and being part of a group or part of a whole and how that very deep human desire can be corrupted and can turn, uh, turn rotten. Although, I suppose in many ways that does link back to death in the idea of like death of the self.

#### ALEX

True.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

The idea of subsuming yourself in a wider whole which uh-

#### ALEX

In terms of then the original question to do with avatars and whether a death is required for a transformation.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mm. 

#### JONNY

It is not required, but it is... common.

#### ALEX

Yeah. I think that's probably the simplest way of putting it?

#### JONNY

Yeah, and you know what I'd go so far to say a metaphorical death is required.

#### ALEX

I can tell you now that a metaphorical death will be required for the simple reason if it isn't happening it's kind of a bad bit of drama?

#### JONNY

Eh, yeah. Like if-

#### ALEX

But that's where script versus lore kind of...

#### JONNY

Yeah, like it's- it's one of those things where like, the uh, the- the thematic aspects are beholden to the drama of the thing.

#### ALEX

Yeah, a little bit.

#### JONNY

Like, the fact that is... a- a fictionalized thing where you need to have some pretty high moments of drama, mean that the more domestic avatars that, like, just will come to their full power through just like being horrible in very mundane very real ways, they're probably not making the cut for- for the- the drama. It's mainly the death. It's mainly the death.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Mainly the death.

#### JONNY

Mainly the death. Death and sex.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### ALEX

Right, we're going to jump on to complete total change.

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX

Boom! From basically everyone: How's The Admiral doing?

#### JONNY

Oh, he's, uh [*Jonny chuckles real weird and kind of ominous here*]. You'll see. He's fine. He's happy.

#### ALEX

What really- here's- here's a sneaky little pet peeve of mine.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mhm. Mhm.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

That really bugged, everyone was going on and on about "Oh, we want The Admiral back, we want The Admiral back." I put The Admiral back in , but it was the one where Melanie's there going, "I'm- I'm sorry I can't help you now."

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

No one cared apparently! Ne- there was too much going on! So, everyone had been fightin' tooth and nail to get The Admiral, *he's there, he's having a great time*.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### ALEX

No one bats an eyelid.

#### JONNY

The Admiral is having a great time.

##### [Both chuckles]

#### ALEX

(*weird accent*) Forty foot tall. With laser beams for claws. 

##### [Both chuckling]

#### JONNY

We'll see.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

OK, we are now perilously close to running out of time, so I'm gonna do a quick fire across the board and just see how many we can get out.

#### JONNY

Cool.

#### ALEX

K, you ready? From basically everyone: Jonny, how did you get through the closing chant of a hundred-sixty on a single breath?

#### JONNY

I was a choir boy from the age of eight. Like I can do- I can do breath.

#### ALEX

From [__*mealybits*__]-

#### JONNY

Sorry, I mean, eldritch strength, uh, channeling my dark masters.

#### ALEX

'Course. Oh, actually, y'know what, I'm going to add in one thing that should- that should be quick fire.

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

He did that four takes on the trot. Never batting an eyelid and we had to take no precautions, no extra steps whatsoever. It was quite peculiar.

#### JONNY

I can do an invocation.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

It was just funny! Y-you did four on the trot!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

It's- it's ju-

#### ALEX

You were like (*Jonny-like*) "Cool, you need another one?" (*normal*) And then didn't breathe between one and the next! It was a bit weird. It was a bit weird.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yes I did! Yes, I did! Yes, I did.

#### ALEX

Right, from [__*mealybits*__]: Jonny, how did you go about doing your best Ben-as-Elias impression? Did Ben record a version for you? Or was that just your *skillful *ear? *VA skills.*

#### JONNY

It was actually- it was actually incredibly simple. Uh, because Ben once confided in me that his Elias voice had originally just been based on my Archivist voice just making it a bit more smug.

#### ALEX

Yep!

#### JONNY [CONT.]

So, I just made my, uh, Archivist voice a bit more smug and it worked.

#### ALEX

So it's the exact reverse of what you think.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Like I re- reversed engineered it because he- yeah- it- it was remarkably easy.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

From, uh, [__*vinetabress*__]: Jonny, the laugh John does at the end of 160 was the perfect mixture of terror and delight. How many times did you have to practice to perfect that laugh?

#### JONNY

Uh, we didn't practice, but we did a lot of takes. Uh-

#### ALEX

Eh, yeah, I think that was one of the days where production was running into issues so, I was a little bit more like (*grittingly*) "Do it again. Do it again."

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

(*more* *grittingly*) Come on. Do it again.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, yeah. We did it, about ten takes of the laugh? But the- the thing about working in audio, you tend not to practice as much as you just do a lot of takes. Because-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Record the practices! It could be perfect!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, because any practice could be the best take.

#### ALEX

So, this is from [__*fsx*__].

#### JONNY

Mhm.

#### ALEX

Will we find out more about the house on Hill Top Road or is that storyline complete?

#### JONNY

It is not complete.

#### ALEX

This is from a bunch of people: What are those tape recorders? Are you ever going to tell us about them in detail?

#### JONNY

Yes.

#### ALEX

This is from [__*michael bush*__]: Do the avatars of The Lonely have other powers than just turning invisible?

#### JONNY

I mean they don't turn invisible. They just make it so they're not where everyone else is. Uh, and also they can send people into The Lonely. And it depends on the avatar. Like, every avatar has fundamentally different powers, I think with The Lonely, the being able to send them into a world where no one else is, a strong commonality? Um, but, uh, like, other Lonely avatars might have completely different powers. Other Lonely avatars might make it so you forgot everyone you ever cared about. Or that everyone you ever cared about forgot you. That might be a power, who knows?

#### ALEX

K, onto a question from [__*nichole*__]: Can we finally get an answer as to what power is at work in MAG 005: Thrown Away?

#### JONNY

No.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Actually, y'know what, yes, alright. Alright, alright.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Oh, Really, are we really going to put this to bed? Alright. Alright let's put this to bed.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

We'll- we're gon- we'll put this to bed. 

#### JONNY

OK, so, number five: Thrown Away, was a very early version of Tom Han and The Flesh. It was the whole, like, being able to remove something and it was playing with ideas of surplus of, uh, of production, this sort of thing. Also the idea of like body parts that are- that have been transformed, uh, but a lot of the thematic elements had not been quite nailed down because it was still very early in the, eh, the writing process and so it got a bit muddied. But, to be honest, also, probably a lot of other powers at work there.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

It's like- it's a pretty much- it's a- it's a, pretty much, a grab bag of-

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I can't be forgetting we can say... Yeah, there's...

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, it's a grab bag of fears. 

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Fears interfering with each other.

#### JONNY

It's like a- so from a meta point of view, it's- it's a muddy one because there's lots of different powers at play.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Flesh-ish.

#### JONNY

Um, yes. It was- it was- it was written as Flesh-adjacent, um, in retrospect it's a lot more complicated than that. A lot of it was just because it was one of the- it was one of the early ones, uh, and we were still workshopping a lot of stuff.

#### ALEX

I'm glad we managed to put that one to bed, I didn't know whether we'd go the entire thing and never address.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Yeah, it's one of those- it's one of those ones where like [*makes a sigh/frustrated sound*] I never wanted to really say because the- the answer is *well it's this one but we didn't do it very well.*

##### [Alex laughs]

Um, and also, cause I know that a lot of people are like "No, I really like Thrown Away because it doesn't- doesn't- it- it sticks out, it doesn't conform," and I'm like "Yeah, it's cause- it's cause we didn't write it consistently." Um, but at the same time-

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Right number of gun shots though.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But at the same time- [*Jonny chuckles*] but at the same time, uh, I'm- it's one of those ones I've been happy to answer to people who've asked face-to-face to me. So, I'm like you know what I might just go on record.

#### ALEX

Um, another from basically every one: What's up with John's lighter? Is it significant? What's going on there?

#### JONNY

Uh, yeah it's significant.

#### ALEX

From [__*kershaw*__], but I know from other people as well: Are we going to hear anything about Rosie's backstory? She's a woman of *mystery*.

#### JONNY

I don't know.

#### ALEX

I categorically *want* to.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Ah. I- I don't-

#### ALEX

But want and will are not the same thing.

#### JONNY

It depends. There is a non-zero chance we'll meet her in season five, but it depends if meeting her would make the series better. Uh, like, I'm not gonna put in there for the sake for having her in there.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

There are certain things that are still up in the air in season five. So, maybe, but I'm not promising anything.

#### ALEX

K, this one is from [__*seb*__]: If John could tell his season-one-self something what would it be?

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Uh, run... away? Just go away?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Bail! Bail! Immediately bail!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

You've- you've made some mistakes.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

It's already a bad call.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Also, leave Martin alone!

##### [Alex laughs more]

#### ALEX

Just bail. That's what basically everyone would say.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah. You're making a mistake!

#### ALEX

The season one- just leave! Just leave!

#### JONNY

Elias is a prick!

#### ALEX

Just leave and the problem goes away.

#### JONNY

Just, I mean like to be fair, they've all- it doesn't, they've already- they've already joined the institution, can't quit, but-

#### ALEX

Season one- oh- what- Technically from season one, yeah, OK fair point, from season one they've already joined.

#### JONNY

Yeah. But it's from an emotional standpoint that's still the advice.

##### [Alex small burst of laugh and continues to laugh]

#### JONNY

Um... I think just like... Stay put? Don't-

#### ALEX

Have a perpetual slow down, y'know, like a- like a strike action.

#### JONNY

Mm.

No, no, what Melanie was doing in season four.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Yeah! Literally!

#### ALEX

Just do that! Sustain it. Just stick with it.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

#### ALEX

And if nothing else, you'll buy yourself a good fifteen years extra?

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

#### ALEX

It worked for Gertrude.

#### ALEX

This one is from [__*nottory*__].

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Mhm.

#### ALEX

What kind of music do you like or listen to when writing?

#### JONNY

Oh. Um, my musical tastes change, uh, quite a lot? Um, gradually- when I'm writing, I mean it's.... It's kind of a dull answer, but when I'm writing I tend to listen to dark ambient playlists on Spotify?

#### ALEX

Also rain.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Uh, also rain, like, uh, rain generator for some- rain generator for some, if- if a statement has like a... muted quality to it, I'd like to listen to rain sounds. Otherwise just, just like... generic dark ambient spooky sounds. Uh, it's not a particularly interesting answer but it- it's- it gets me in the head space. 

Outside of that, currently in a post-drop phase. Um, really enjoying just ridiculous albums with like the most pretentious title names.

##### [Alex laughs]

Uh, what was... something... something like Shit-Heap Gloria, Ode to a Town Planner or something like that.

##### [Alex cracks up]

#### ALEX

Nice.

#### JONNY [CONT.]

But they're all j- just ridiculous and I love them and it's just, half of it is just elderly American men rambling on about radio towers.

#### ALEX [BACKGROUND]

Literally anything.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### JONNY [CONT.]

Or like weird spiritualist conspiracies. Um.

#### ALEX

Right, I'm gonna give you a choice for the last, last question of this Q&A.

#### JONNY [BACKGROUND]

Yup, yep, yep. Alright. Alright. OK, OK OK.

#### ALEX

So, would you rather a question...

#### JONNY

Mhm.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

That touches on RPGs or...

#### JONNY

Oo!

#### ALEX [CONT.]

A question that touches further upon cats? Big decision time.

#### JONNY

##### [lets out a breath/air]

Y'know what..

#### ALEX

What you feelin'?

#### JONNY

I'm keep the cats for the Patreon.

#### ALEX

OK, OK, RPGs then. So this is from [__*thimbreous*__].

#### JONNY

Mhm.

#### ALEX

What classes would The Archives crew be in DnD? Hard mode: Only one of them can be warlock, i.e. with a patreon.

#### JONNY

Alright. OK, yeah OK, let's- let's have a think. Um, so... Elias would be a cleric, I think, rather than a warlock. I think-

#### ALEX

You can go mastermind with him, rogue mastermind.

#### JONNY

(*doubtful*) Yeah. Yeah.

#### ALEX

But it- it- to be clear, it is cleric. Like, you are- you are correct.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I mean like... Tim's a fighter. Like, I'd love to say he's like a bard cause he's sort of charism...

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

You could've gone as far as paladin. Cause high charism, punch-y, very self-righteous.

##### [Jonny makes a weird somewhat disagreeing sound]

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

No, like he...No, like he- he takes his....

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Willful stupid.

##### [Jonny pauses and makes a small chuckle]

#### JONNY

I think his- his turn is too pragmatic to be a paladin.

#### ALEX

I would agree with that. So we got Tim as a fighter.

#### JONNY

Uh, I think- I think Basira is a paladin.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Oh yeah! Yeah!

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Basira's a paladin. Daisy... starts out... I think Daisy starts out as a rogue, actually. She starts out as, like, an assassin rogue. And then... converts into a barbarian that refuses to use her rage powers.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

That's- yeah. Bang on.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Um...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Daisy, but Daisy multi-class. It didn't really gel as much as it could have.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

#### ALEX

Yeah. M'kay.

And, mmh, OK, Melanie!

#### JONNY

Uh... Melanie is... Oooh...

#### ALEX

It's rouge! It's gotta be rogue!

#### JONNY

No- no, no, your- I'm sorry, you're just- you're just saying that because Lyd plays, uh, Sasha...

#### ALEX

(*realization*) In real life, she plays rogues in real-life.

#### JONNY

Yeah. Um, no... I think...

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I would do it as rogue investigator. I really would. 'Cause she's got that angle to it.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

I think she's the ranger. 'Cause she got her favorite enemy.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Ooo! OK. No, yeah, I can actually get on board with that.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

And she's very- she's very driven in terms of tracking and when she's out of her specific element she finds it very difficult.

#### ALEX

Y- you know what, you know what, I take mine back, ranger is a better choice there, ranger is a better choice. In which case then... Wait.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Um, so who does that- who does that leave? Obviously we still- we've still- we've still got Martin and John.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

We've still got Martin and John.

#### JONNY

Uh, original Sasha, wizard. Uh...

#### ALEX

Yes, yes, yes yes.

#### JONNY

Like conscientious, knows her stuff, um... does- does the reading.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

A bit too empirical when her life's on the line.

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Does the reading, uh, and unfortunately very easy to kill when found around.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Very squishy. Very squishy.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Very squishy.

#### ALEX

Um, OK then, Martin then.

#### JONNY

##### [deep breath out]

Difficult...

#### ALEX

Commoner?

##### [Both burst into laughter]

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

Uh, I... will...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

Over-ambitious NPC?

#### JONNY

I'm probably going to go with bard? Because his thing is trying to support everyone else?

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I think he just might be a cohort.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

And, he does, he's- he's a bard.

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I think he might just be- I think might just be a cohort!

#### JONNY

He's- he's a bard but unfort he doesn't have an instrument, he chose poetry and isn't very well min-maxed.

#### ALEX

He- no, what he is a bard who is just like (*Martin-voice*) "Cool guys so what skills do we still have to cover? Proficiency in land-vehicles, yeah OK, I'll take that."

#### JONNY

Yeah.

#### ALEX

(*Martin-voice*) "What other- Oh, oh we don't have, uh- we don't have urban survival, OK, I'll take that I guess."

#### JONNY

Yeah, Yep.

##### [Alex chuckles]

#### JONNY

And John, I mean John is the warlock, isn't he.

#### ALEX

Yes. Due to the fluff. But, I still maintain that he doesn't play it like a warlock.

#### JONNY

No, that's fair. That's fair. What does he play like then?

#### ALEX

He *plays* like a wizard!

#### JONNY

No, he doesn't.

#### ALEX

Yes, he does!

#### JONNY

He doesn't because he doesn't do- he- like he's not meticulous. He's not meticulous in how he approaches things. Wizards...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

I didn't say he was a *good* wizard.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

No...

#### ALEX [OVERLAPPING]

He's a wizard that picks a fight with something far bigger than he is and releases something into the world.

#### JONNY [OVERLAPPING]

He's a warlock who thinks he's a druid.

#### ALEX

Expand!

#### JONNY

He thinks, like, a lot of his stuff comes naturally from connections that he feels are natural. Uh, and I think that he... tries to... engage with the world? But actually a lot of his stuff comes from a very dark place.

#### ALEX [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Ah, I think I know what he is. We forgot to take to account the player behind the character. What Jonny is is a warlock played by a player who's like "I'm not gonna take anything for combat,"* *and everyone is like "*Come on. Come on. Please take something,"* "No. No, I'm going to take *only* social abilities," And everyone's like "I mean, OK."

#### JONNY [SLIGHTLY OVERLAPPING]

Or he's just a warlock- or he's a warlock, who the player hasn't told anyone else is a warlock and is pretending that they're a druid.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

Right, we're going to have to call it there. If yours hasn't been answered on here, there's always a chance we'll be answering it on the extra Patreon episode. Obviously, it- it is worth mentioning we are on our season hiatus currently.

#### JONNY

Yep.

#### ALEX [CONT.]

We are going to be releasing, uh, hiatus content about once every two weeks or so, where's it gonna be extra things, to sort of keep things moving and let people see a bit more in how we make things, stuff like that. And, um, in the meantime obviously, do check us out on social media, do check out twitter, I mean, if you're already listening- a lot of people do.

#### JONNY

Yep.

#### ALEX

Erm, apart from that, it's just say thanks, you've made it to the end of the world.

#### JONNY

(*relief*) Oh yeah. Thanks everyone!

#### ALEX

So good job on that one!

#### JONNY

Hope- hope you enjoyed the ride.

#### ALEX

It isn't over! It isn't over.

#### JONNY

It's not, it's not. It's- a-

#### ALEX

It's the full season.

#### JONNY

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

##### [Alex laughs]

#### ALEX

But apart from that, I guess that was everything. So thanks everyone and, uh, we'll be checking with you real soon!

#### JONNY

Thank you!

#### ALEX

Bye!

#### JONNY

Buh- bye!